8 ms·

Is it possible The vaccine has the opposite effect on some people, rather than helping them to defend, it makes it easier for them to become infected?

by ajay-b 5y ago

belter 5y ago
From a purely scientific point a view, there is no reason for the post above (from ajay-b) to be downvoted.
- r00fus 5y ago
  Wild assertions without data or references are simply trolling.
  - dogma1138 5y ago
    A question isn’t a wild assertion.
    - r00fus 5y ago
      A wild assertion can indeed be posed as a question. It's a dark pattern rampantly used in conspiracy circles.
  - ekianjo 5y ago
    There's nothing wild about that kind of questions. We know that sometimes vaccines are the cause of re-infections (for inactivated agents vaccines): https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1383764/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1383764/
- linuxhansl 5y ago
  Because this hypothesis has already been shown to be false numerous times.
  - dogma1138 5y ago
    And the GP was asking a question, not stating it as a fact.
    - linuxhansl 5y ago
      A question that would take 2-3 minutes of Googling to answer. I did not downvote that question, but I still think it didn't have any place here.
      - dogma1138 5y ago
        No it really wouldn’t, some vaccine candidates including for MERS and SARS have exhibited ADE (a phenomenon that isn’t well understood to begin with) in some animal models. It so far hasn’t been observed in humans with any of the approved COVID vaccines but it doesn’t mean that it can’t happen either with some new mutation or in some rare cases with existing variants. In general if you Google this without a pretty in depth understanding of biology and immunology you’ll go down a rabbit hole that would just reinforce your current position. Asking a question shouldn’t be downvoted and even if you haven’t you shouldn’t excuse this behavior.
      - ibejoeb 5y ago
        This is discussion forum. People here are supposed to be curious, thoughtful, and scientifically minded.
- lucb1e 5y ago
  It's often really tough to make the call on whether someone is genuinely asking and when they're seeding doubt (people going back and forth on a topic makes something seem under debate) or even plain trolling and trying to waste other's time (since it's so much quicker to ask the question than to adequately answer it). This particular case is a pretty plain question, I'm more speaking of the general case. What might also be worth to realize that the illusory truth effect is a thing, i.e. "the tendency to believe false information to be correct after repeated exposure." "[A 2015] study suggested that the truth effect can influence participants who actually knew the correct answer to begin with, but who were swayed to believe otherwise through the repetition of a falsehood." (From Wikipedia.) I can understand why one might choose to downvote such a "genuine" question when it's easy to find that the answer is "no" (it's mentioned on the COVID-19 misinformation Wikipedia page).
  - higherup 5y ago
    >the tendency to believe false information to be correct after repeated exposure. Like when someone say "vaccines are safe and effective", "vaccines are safe and effective", repeatedly, when the statement itself is very wrong because of the generalisation of "vaccines"...
    - lucb1e 5y ago
      Anything they're likely to get in a rich country will be safe and effective. Can't speak for places like Egypt of course, but you make it sound as if there is real risk involved for people on HN which there generally is not.
      - higherup 5y ago
        >Anything they're likely to get in a rich country will be safe and effective. Can you show me a rich country where all vaccine AEFIs are strictly reported and followed up and serious ones investigated? If not, then I am not sure how you can make that claim.
mixedCase 5y ago
What mechanism are you suggesting would be at fault for such an outcome?
- wayneftw 5y ago
  From my own experience, I see that vaccinated people are less fearful of mixing with large groups of people. That's one way the vaccinated can be more easily infected. It's not a physiological effect but I think it's probably the crux of the whole issue here.
  - jonplackett 5y ago
    Behaviour-wise this is definitely true - not for everyone, but many. But I don't think it wouldn't matter for the comparison because they're looking at rates of serious illness, rather than absolute number of people catching it. Saying that, if seriousness of disease is related to initial exposure amount, perhaps being vaxxed and overly brave could mean you get a higher initial dose?
    - wayneftw 5y ago
      OK thanks. I thought the major concern was the number of people getting it not the number of severe cases... I'm not really sure why it is this way. I would think lessening the spread of it would be the highest priority.
- recursivedoubts 5y ago
  A possible mechanism I have seen mentioned is Antibody Dependent Enhancement: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antibody-dependent_enhancement https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antibody-dependent_enhancement I am not a biologist and have no opinion on the matter, I have just seen it mentioned online.
  - belter 5y ago
    Interesting. It seems that this was actually a concern and considered during initial development of COVID vaccines. It seems it was considered not likely to happen but there is this interesting part here from 2019 that caught my attention: "Consensus summary report for CEPI/BC March 12–13, 2020 meeting: Assessment of risk of disease enhancement with COVID-19 vaccines" https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7247514/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7247514/ "A syndrome of “disease enhancement” has been reported in the past for a few viral vaccines where those immunized suffered increased severity or death when they later encountered the virus or were found to have an increased frequency of infection. Animal models allowed scientists to determine the underlying mechanism for the former in the case of Respiratory syncytial virus (RSV) vaccine and have been utilized to design and screen new RSV vaccine candidates. Because some Middle East respiratory syndrome (MERS) and SARS-CoV-1 vaccines have shown evidence of disease enhancement in some animal models, this is a particular concern for SARS-CoV-2 vaccines. To address this challenge, the Coalition for Epidemic Preparedness Innovations (CEPI) and the Brighton Collaboration (BC) Safety Platform for Emergency vACcines (SPEAC) convened a scientific working meeting on March 12 and 13, 2020 of experts in the field of vaccine immunology and coronaviruses to consider what vaccine designs could reduce safety concerns and how animal models and immunological assessments in early clinical trials can help to assess the risk. This report summarizes the evidence presented and provides considerations for safety assessment of COVID-19 vaccine candidates in accelerated vaccine development."
heavyset_go 5y ago
Some vaccine candidates can do this, but it would have been caught early on as it's one of the things researchers will look out for. There are some citations here[1] when it comes to this phenomenon and COVID vaccines. It hasn't been observed in clinical trials, nor after mass inoculations. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/COVID-19_misinformation#Antibody-dependent_enhancement https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/COVID-19_misinformation#Antibo...
- hammock 5y ago
  Outcomes suggestive of Antibody Dependent Enhancement (what we are talking about) were seen in animal trials, but the animal trials were canceled.
higherup 5y ago
Its called ADE and if Vaccine generated anti-bodies are not sterilising (as current COVID vaccines are), then the antibodies with the bonded virus, can take the virus to places that otherwise would be off limits to it, making it much more lethal..

Is it possible The vaccine has the opposite effect on some people, rather than helping them to defend, it makes it easier for them to become infected?

by ajay-b 5y ago

Is it possible The vaccine has the opposite effect on some people, rather than helping them to defend, it makes it easier for them to become infected?

belter 5y ago

From a purely scientific point a view, there is no reason for the post above (from ajay-b) to be downvoted.

r00fus 5y ago
Wild assertions without data or references are simply trolling.
- dogma1138 5y ago
  A question isn’t a wild assertion.
  - r00fus 5y ago
    A wild assertion can indeed be posed as a question. It's a dark pattern rampantly used in conspiracy circles.
- ekianjo 5y ago
  There's nothing wild about that kind of questions. We know that sometimes vaccines are the cause of re-infections (for inactivated agents vaccines): https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1383764/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1383764/
linuxhansl 5y ago
Because this hypothesis has already been shown to be false numerous times.
- dogma1138 5y ago
  And the GP was asking a question, not stating it as a fact.
  - linuxhansl 5y ago
    A question that would take 2-3 minutes of Googling to answer. I did not downvote that question, but I still think it didn't have any place here.
    - dogma1138 5y ago
      No it really wouldn’t, some vaccine candidates including for MERS and SARS have exhibited ADE (a phenomenon that isn’t well understood to begin with) in some animal models. It so far hasn’t been observed in humans with any of the approved COVID vaccines but it doesn’t mean that it can’t happen either with some new mutation or in some rare cases with existing variants. In general if you Google this without a pretty in depth understanding of biology and immunology you’ll go down a rabbit hole that would just reinforce your current position. Asking a question shouldn’t be downvoted and even if you haven’t you shouldn’t excuse this behavior.
    - ibejoeb 5y ago
      This is discussion forum. People here are supposed to be curious, thoughtful, and scientifically minded.
lucb1e 5y ago
It's often really tough to make the call on whether someone is genuinely asking and when they're seeding doubt (people going back and forth on a topic makes something seem under debate) or even plain trolling and trying to waste other's time (since it's so much quicker to ask the question than to adequately answer it). This particular case is a pretty plain question, I'm more speaking of the general case. What might also be worth to realize that the illusory truth effect is a thing, i.e. "the tendency to believe false information to be correct after repeated exposure." "[A 2015] study suggested that the truth effect can influence participants who actually knew the correct answer to begin with, but who were swayed to believe otherwise through the repetition of a falsehood." (From Wikipedia.) I can understand why one might choose to downvote such a "genuine" question when it's easy to find that the answer is "no" (it's mentioned on the COVID-19 misinformation Wikipedia page).
- higherup 5y ago
  >the tendency to believe false information to be correct after repeated exposure. Like when someone say "vaccines are safe and effective", "vaccines are safe and effective", repeatedly, when the statement itself is very wrong because of the generalisation of "vaccines"...
  - lucb1e 5y ago
    Anything they're likely to get in a rich country will be safe and effective. Can't speak for places like Egypt of course, but you make it sound as if there is real risk involved for people on HN which there generally is not.
    - higherup 5y ago
      >Anything they're likely to get in a rich country will be safe and effective. Can you show me a rich country where all vaccine AEFIs are strictly reported and followed up and serious ones investigated? If not, then I am not sure how you can make that claim.

mixedCase 5y ago

What mechanism are you suggesting would be at fault for such an outcome?

wayneftw 5y ago
From my own experience, I see that vaccinated people are less fearful of mixing with large groups of people. That's one way the vaccinated can be more easily infected. It's not a physiological effect but I think it's probably the crux of the whole issue here.
- jonplackett 5y ago
  Behaviour-wise this is definitely true - not for everyone, but many. But I don't think it wouldn't matter for the comparison because they're looking at rates of serious illness, rather than absolute number of people catching it. Saying that, if seriousness of disease is related to initial exposure amount, perhaps being vaxxed and overly brave could mean you get a higher initial dose?
  - wayneftw 5y ago
    OK thanks. I thought the major concern was the number of people getting it not the number of severe cases... I'm not really sure why it is this way. I would think lessening the spread of it would be the highest priority.
recursivedoubts 5y ago
A possible mechanism I have seen mentioned is Antibody Dependent Enhancement: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antibody-dependent_enhancement https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antibody-dependent_enhancement I am not a biologist and have no opinion on the matter, I have just seen it mentioned online.
- belter 5y ago
  Interesting. It seems that this was actually a concern and considered during initial development of COVID vaccines. It seems it was considered not likely to happen but there is this interesting part here from 2019 that caught my attention: "Consensus summary report for CEPI/BC March 12–13, 2020 meeting: Assessment of risk of disease enhancement with COVID-19 vaccines" https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7247514/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7247514/ "A syndrome of “disease enhancement” has been reported in the past for a few viral vaccines where those immunized suffered increased severity or death when they later encountered the virus or were found to have an increased frequency of infection. Animal models allowed scientists to determine the underlying mechanism for the former in the case of Respiratory syncytial virus (RSV) vaccine and have been utilized to design and screen new RSV vaccine candidates. Because some Middle East respiratory syndrome (MERS) and SARS-CoV-1 vaccines have shown evidence of disease enhancement in some animal models, this is a particular concern for SARS-CoV-2 vaccines. To address this challenge, the Coalition for Epidemic Preparedness Innovations (CEPI) and the Brighton Collaboration (BC) Safety Platform for Emergency vACcines (SPEAC) convened a scientific working meeting on March 12 and 13, 2020 of experts in the field of vaccine immunology and coronaviruses to consider what vaccine designs could reduce safety concerns and how animal models and immunological assessments in early clinical trials can help to assess the risk. This report summarizes the evidence presented and provides considerations for safety assessment of COVID-19 vaccine candidates in accelerated vaccine development."

heavyset_go 5y ago

Some vaccine candidates can do this, but it would have been caught early on as it's one of the things researchers will look out for. There are some citations here[1] when it comes to this phenomenon and COVID vaccines. It hasn't been observed in clinical trials, nor after mass inoculations. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/COVID-19_misinformation#Antibody-dependent_enhancement https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/COVID-19_misinformation#Antibo...

hammock 5y ago
Outcomes suggestive of Antibody Dependent Enhancement (what we are talking about) were seen in animal trials, but the animal trials were canceled.

higherup 5y ago

Its called ADE and if Vaccine generated anti-bodies are not sterilising (as current COVID vaccines are), then the antibodies with the bonded virus, can take the virus to places that otherwise would be off limits to it, making it much more lethal..