7 ms·

The list of things we could have achieved with that money is what is the most distressing. Make a countrywide high speed rail system. Universal free preschool

The list of things we could have achieved with that money is what is the most distressing. Make a countrywide high speed rail system. Universal free preschool Universal free college (Edit: for scale rather than an example of necessarily a good) Paid off half the mortgages in the US The list goes on and on. Let nobody say we don’t have money for improvements to our society.

pclmulqdq 5y ago
How about lowering taxes and giving that money back to people?
misiti3780 5y ago
Why would the US government pay off peoples mortgages? Surely you don't think that is viable thing to spend public money on? To be clear, I think the other ideas are great, except that one.
- gruez 5y ago
  > Why would the US government pay off peoples mortgages? Surely you don't think that is viable thing to spend public money on? Yeah that's a dumb idea. All that would do is cause houses to be even more expensive.
- taurath 5y ago
  I’m not saying it should by any means, only to appreciate the sheer scale. There are of course way better ideas.
FpUser 5y ago
>"Universal free college" This would greatly increase the amount of critically thinking population. I do not think it lines up well with what the government and elites want.
- coldacid 5y ago
  >This would greatly increase the amount of critically thinking population. I wish I were as optimistic as you.
  - FpUser 5y ago
    Well I did not say all of them will turn this way ;) But still should be many times better than what it is now.
  - godelski 5y ago
    Being in a PhD program has shown me that academic education does not solve any of the political problems. I mean we can also look at other countries and see highly educated populations still not question their governments.
- gruez 5y ago
  >I do not think it lines up well with what the government and elites want. ...which is why the government subsidizes college tuition with grants and guaranteed loans? Or that banks give out the same loans as well?
  - lotsofpulp 5y ago
    The government gives out loans so that politicians can claim they helped people while also claiming they controlled spending and kept taxes low. Those taxpayer guaranteed loans are just taking money from future taxpayers and giving it to the higher education business by letting them increase tuition without limit since there is no underwriting process. And of course the students get saddled with lifelong debt with no exit since they are not dischargeable in regular bankruptcy, and future taxpayers get soaked with paying for the defaulted loans. Private banks used to give out those loans because they were still guaranteed by the government, and I think Obama changed that, but they still have special status that make them harder to discharge in bankruptcy. Tl:dr taxpayer funded loans for higher education are a net negative for society
    - 5y ago
beamatronic 5y ago
Here's the good news though: This proves that money is imaginary, and we should print up as much as we want, and do these things (in your list).
- taurath 5y ago
  Money is a social construct. We create money for investment every day. Investing in the population creates returns in tax revenue. You open opportunities for wealth creation by putting down roads and train stations and modes of commerce.
- hunterb123 5y ago
  The more money you print, the more imaginary it becomes, the less purchasing power it has, the more stuff costs. Inflation.
  - bushbaba 5y ago
    That only matters for imports. For domestic economy if inflation stays reasonable it doesn’t matter. Print away.
    - hunterb123 5y ago
      Current life says that's not the case. Some of that may be supply chain issues, and they say inflation is at 5% or so, but most things have had at least a 20% price increase this year. Edit: to poster below, it varies, very noticeable if you are traveling. For your cost of living, it's noticeable over the month if you are living paycheck to paycheck. My point is don't just "print away", inflation is a tax on the poor. Car rental 87.7% (y/y change) Used cars 45.2% Gas 45.1% Laundry machines 29.4% Airfare 24.6% Moving 17.3% Hotels 16.9% Furniture 8.6% Bacon 8.4% TVs 7.6% Fruit 7.3% Shoes 6.5% Fresh fish 6.4% New cars 5.3% Milk 5.6% Rent (OER) 2.3%
      - dragonwriter 5y ago
        > most things have had at least a 20% price increase Most things have not had anywhere close to that. The things that have draw more attention, though.
listenallyall 5y ago
Why is the govt (i.e., taxpayers) paying off a mortgage good for society? And if you later sell the house, do you keep the money, or pay back what the govt paid? Who benefits from the enormous appreciation (if the govt will be paying off the mortgage, why not offer $5 million for a typical 3br?)?
- glitchcrab 5y ago
  I don't think they meant that the government should actually do this, it was just to indicate the scale.
deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
hunterb123 5y ago
I'm against both parties funneling tax payer money to defense contractors in never-ending wars, but more government programs to give them more options to funnel money is not the solution. Totally for high speed rail depending on if the money gets to it. Japan has shown a private/public transportation system is possible. That being said, it'll probably go to a politicians friend's company and it'll end up like the $90 billion California train. The current K-12 public school system is a joke, lets fix that first. I'd rather see school of choice. You can already qualify for preschool if you need it. For college, let's lower tuition before making the tax payer pay off the current tuition debt and then paying for free college for even more. (but really lets not pay people's debt)
- taurath 5y ago
  I’m not saying it has to be spent, or that it has to be spent on what I said. The scale is the thing. Austerity since 2008 seems like it leads to much worse outcomes.
  - hunterb123 5y ago
    I understand, my point was, the never ending war gave them the opportunity to funnel to Boeing, Lockheed, Raytheon, etc. Making "universal" programs is the same thing as Afghanistan, you won't get anything out of it in the end and it'll end up costing you trillions. The best government program is near to no program. Don't print more, let it hold it's value, don't steal from the people. Then you'll have oodles of wealth to help the true people in need, either through private companies or through limited government programs with oversight. Stop giving them tax payer fund spigots, they can't be trusted.
    - taurath 5y ago
      Governments around the world are able to provide more services to all of their citizens, being less rich than us. I think the “government is always the problem” mindset ignores the downsides of the alternative that we’re living through now, with the only proscribed thing to do being a zero example “doubling down” on less government. If you want your country to have healthcare, at the very minimum you do the Swiss system.
pomian 5y ago
Why not free internet? Seeing as it's now an essential service. (Although totally crazy that we are so dependent on it.)
- filoleg 5y ago
  One major reason for why not, I would say that water and electricity are essential services too (esp given that free internet is useless if you dont have electricity access), but they aren’t free yet. So before we jump onto thinking about making internet free (if that was ever even a plan), I think it would make sense to make water+electricity free first.
  - dataflow 5y ago
    Unlike water and electricity, internet can be provided without a physical connection. Which makes it much easier to provide than water or electricity. So I'm not actually sure "no free electricity/water => no free internet" is a sensible implication here. (Though I'm not opining on the merits of any of them here. Only discussing the implication.)
  - pomian 5y ago
    Interesting idea. What if electricity and water were free? Aren't they essential also? Instead of ubi; electricity, Water, and energy - basic amount to survive (heat or cold.) Together with medicine. And education. That would make a huge difference to make an even playing field. Instead of all the other attempts to make up for this, with equal access, etc. And a huge difference to fight basic poverty, because these would just be there. True equal opportunity then?
    - filoleg 5y ago
      I think your proposal is actually pretty sound. Never thought of this before, but it is an interesting idea. Having utilities free sounds pretty good, but idk how helpful it would be to deal with homelessness (which is one of the main issues with basic access to all of those things), given how small of a fraction utilities make up when it comes to overall housing costs. Don't get me wrong, I am absolutely not in the camp of "just because this improvement proposal might have some issues, we should just sit and do nothing", and free utilities would definitely be an improvement, and a massive one at that. I just think that, while we are floating those proposals, we shouldn't forget the elephant in the room either, which is "how do we make sure that everyone who needs access to housing has access to housing".
icedchai 5y ago
Do you really think we'd have done any of those things if we weren't in Afghanistan? I find that hard to believe.
- Kye 5y ago
  The change in politics required to get us out of Afghanistan before wasting all that money would probably also have been conducive to an updated social safety net.

pclmulqdq 5y ago

How about lowering taxes and giving that money back to people?

misiti3780 5y ago

Why would the US government pay off peoples mortgages? Surely you don't think that is viable thing to spend public money on? To be clear, I think the other ideas are great, except that one.

gruez 5y ago
> Why would the US government pay off peoples mortgages? Surely you don't think that is viable thing to spend public money on? Yeah that's a dumb idea. All that would do is cause houses to be even more expensive.
taurath 5y ago
I’m not saying it should by any means, only to appreciate the sheer scale. There are of course way better ideas.

FpUser 5y ago

>"Universal free college" This would greatly increase the amount of critically thinking population. I do not think it lines up well with what the government and elites want.

coldacid 5y ago
>This would greatly increase the amount of critically thinking population. I wish I were as optimistic as you.
- FpUser 5y ago
  Well I did not say all of them will turn this way ;) But still should be many times better than what it is now.
- godelski 5y ago
  Being in a PhD program has shown me that academic education does not solve any of the political problems. I mean we can also look at other countries and see highly educated populations still not question their governments.
gruez 5y ago
>I do not think it lines up well with what the government and elites want. ...which is why the government subsidizes college tuition with grants and guaranteed loans? Or that banks give out the same loans as well?
- lotsofpulp 5y ago
  The government gives out loans so that politicians can claim they helped people while also claiming they controlled spending and kept taxes low. Those taxpayer guaranteed loans are just taking money from future taxpayers and giving it to the higher education business by letting them increase tuition without limit since there is no underwriting process. And of course the students get saddled with lifelong debt with no exit since they are not dischargeable in regular bankruptcy, and future taxpayers get soaked with paying for the defaulted loans. Private banks used to give out those loans because they were still guaranteed by the government, and I think Obama changed that, but they still have special status that make them harder to discharge in bankruptcy. Tl:dr taxpayer funded loans for higher education are a net negative for society
  - 5y ago

beamatronic 5y ago

Here's the good news though: This proves that money is imaginary, and we should print up as much as we want, and do these things (in your list).

taurath 5y ago
Money is a social construct. We create money for investment every day. Investing in the population creates returns in tax revenue. You open opportunities for wealth creation by putting down roads and train stations and modes of commerce.
hunterb123 5y ago
The more money you print, the more imaginary it becomes, the less purchasing power it has, the more stuff costs. Inflation.
- bushbaba 5y ago
  That only matters for imports. For domestic economy if inflation stays reasonable it doesn’t matter. Print away.
  - hunterb123 5y ago
    Current life says that's not the case. Some of that may be supply chain issues, and they say inflation is at 5% or so, but most things have had at least a 20% price increase this year. Edit: to poster below, it varies, very noticeable if you are traveling. For your cost of living, it's noticeable over the month if you are living paycheck to paycheck. My point is don't just "print away", inflation is a tax on the poor. Car rental 87.7% (y/y change) Used cars 45.2% Gas 45.1% Laundry machines 29.4% Airfare 24.6% Moving 17.3% Hotels 16.9% Furniture 8.6% Bacon 8.4% TVs 7.6% Fruit 7.3% Shoes 6.5% Fresh fish 6.4% New cars 5.3% Milk 5.6% Rent (OER) 2.3%
    - dragonwriter 5y ago
      > most things have had at least a 20% price increase Most things have not had anywhere close to that. The things that have draw more attention, though.

listenallyall 5y ago

Why is the govt (i.e., taxpayers) paying off a mortgage good for society? And if you later sell the house, do you keep the money, or pay back what the govt paid? Who benefits from the enormous appreciation (if the govt will be paying off the mortgage, why not offer $5 million for a typical 3br?)?

glitchcrab 5y ago
I don't think they meant that the government should actually do this, it was just to indicate the scale.

deleted 5y ago

[deleted]

hunterb123 5y ago

I'm against both parties funneling tax payer money to defense contractors in never-ending wars, but more government programs to give them more options to funnel money is not the solution. Totally for high speed rail depending on if the money gets to it. Japan has shown a private/public transportation system is possible. That being said, it'll probably go to a politicians friend's company and it'll end up like the $90 billion California train. The current K-12 public school system is a joke, lets fix that first. I'd rather see school of choice. You can already qualify for preschool if you need it. For college, let's lower tuition before making the tax payer pay off the current tuition debt and then paying for free college for even more. (but really lets not pay people's debt)

taurath 5y ago
I’m not saying it has to be spent, or that it has to be spent on what I said. The scale is the thing. Austerity since 2008 seems like it leads to much worse outcomes.
- hunterb123 5y ago
  I understand, my point was, the never ending war gave them the opportunity to funnel to Boeing, Lockheed, Raytheon, etc. Making "universal" programs is the same thing as Afghanistan, you won't get anything out of it in the end and it'll end up costing you trillions. The best government program is near to no program. Don't print more, let it hold it's value, don't steal from the people. Then you'll have oodles of wealth to help the true people in need, either through private companies or through limited government programs with oversight. Stop giving them tax payer fund spigots, they can't be trusted.
  - taurath 5y ago
    Governments around the world are able to provide more services to all of their citizens, being less rich than us. I think the “government is always the problem” mindset ignores the downsides of the alternative that we’re living through now, with the only proscribed thing to do being a zero example “doubling down” on less government. If you want your country to have healthcare, at the very minimum you do the Swiss system.

pomian 5y ago

Why not free internet? Seeing as it's now an essential service. (Although totally crazy that we are so dependent on it.)

filoleg 5y ago
One major reason for why not, I would say that water and electricity are essential services too (esp given that free internet is useless if you dont have electricity access), but they aren’t free yet. So before we jump onto thinking about making internet free (if that was ever even a plan), I think it would make sense to make water+electricity free first.
- dataflow 5y ago
  Unlike water and electricity, internet can be provided without a physical connection. Which makes it much easier to provide than water or electricity. So I'm not actually sure "no free electricity/water => no free internet" is a sensible implication here. (Though I'm not opining on the merits of any of them here. Only discussing the implication.)
- pomian 5y ago
  Interesting idea. What if electricity and water were free? Aren't they essential also? Instead of ubi; electricity, Water, and energy - basic amount to survive (heat or cold.) Together with medicine. And education. That would make a huge difference to make an even playing field. Instead of all the other attempts to make up for this, with equal access, etc. And a huge difference to fight basic poverty, because these would just be there. True equal opportunity then?
  - filoleg 5y ago
    I think your proposal is actually pretty sound. Never thought of this before, but it is an interesting idea. Having utilities free sounds pretty good, but idk how helpful it would be to deal with homelessness (which is one of the main issues with basic access to all of those things), given how small of a fraction utilities make up when it comes to overall housing costs. Don't get me wrong, I am absolutely not in the camp of "just because this improvement proposal might have some issues, we should just sit and do nothing", and free utilities would definitely be an improvement, and a massive one at that. I just think that, while we are floating those proposals, we shouldn't forget the elephant in the room either, which is "how do we make sure that everyone who needs access to housing has access to housing".

icedchai 5y ago

Do you really think we'd have done any of those things if we weren't in Afghanistan? I find that hard to believe.

Kye 5y ago
The change in politics required to get us out of Afghanistan before wasting all that money would probably also have been conducive to an updated social safety net.