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Vaccine mandates are constitutional in the USA. We just forget our history from time to time. People also misunderstand the meaning of freedom as well. https:

by sjg007 5y ago

Vaccine mandates are constitutional in the USA. We just forget our history from time to time. People also misunderstand the meaning of freedom as well. https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/vaccine-mandates-are-lawful-effective-and-based-on-rock-solid-science/ https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/vaccine-mandates-...

kcplate 5y ago
Doesn’t matter. The best way to guarantee that the final 28% probably won’t get vaccinated is to mandate it. The best way to get the final 28% vaccinated is to fully FDA approve it, get Fauci and Biden to ease up on the vax shaming and then simply expect that 10-15% still won’t do it. You write them off and let the chips fall. It’s remarkable to me that our government hasn’t figured out that you don’t get people who are already distrustful of the government to magically become trustful of the government by doing the same shit over and over that caused the distrust.
- howinteresting 5y ago
  That's fine, they should get shut out of public life then. That's what fully internalizing the externalities looks like.
  - kcplate 5y ago
    Ya know…I seem to recall a bunch of people once thought that same exact thing about some other people about 60+ years ago. They thought they were better than the others, that the others were inferior, dirty, diseased, and less intelligent. Those powerful folks did all they could to keep the others out of stores, restaurants, front seats of buses, off water fountains, etc. and just kind of hoped those folks they hated and didn’t want in their society would just go away too.
    - deleted 5y ago
      [deleted]
    - howinteresting 5y ago
      The difference is that discrimination based on race is unjust, while discrimination based on vaccination status is just. I'll let you work out why.
      - mdp2021 5y ago
        Have you worked out the formula to correctly balance personal and collective risk, computationally? I would not dismiss the matter as trivial - I see it more as Nobel prize worth.
        howinteresting 5y ago
        Plenty of gray areas, of course, where the decision is legitimately hard. The Vietnam draft was clearly immoral but was the World War 2 draft just? I'm really not sure. Vaccine mandates are nowhere close to that, though—the individual risk is virtually nonexistent while the collective risk is massive. The general problem does not need to be solved fully for us to move forward with public policy in clear-cut cases.
        mdp2021 5y ago
        In the specific case, you write about a «virtually nonexistent individual risk» while many¹ are yet to find such reassurance. If that statement were evidently true, one would agree with your conclusion save some details. ¹(including the brightest people I know - statement disincorporated from the above since anecdotal)
        howinteresting 5y ago
        Those people are much less bright than you think they are. There are zero people in my own social circles who didn't get vaccinated the moment they could (some live in countries where they still don't have access to vaccines). The difference might be that my social circle is mostly queer people like myself, and we know how bad pandemics can be. Again, I have very little sympathy for anti-vax people. The correct thing to do for society as a whole is to follow New York's and San Francisco's lead and exclude them from public life until they get vaccinated. Public policy can't be based on fringe pseudoscience.

by sjg007 5y ago

kcplate 5y ago

Doesn’t matter. The best way to guarantee that the final 28% probably won’t get vaccinated is to mandate it. The best way to get the final 28% vaccinated is to fully FDA approve it, get Fauci and Biden to ease up on the vax shaming and then simply expect that 10-15% still won’t do it. You write them off and let the chips fall. It’s remarkable to me that our government hasn’t figured out that you don’t get people who are already distrustful of the government to magically become trustful of the government by doing the same shit over and over that caused the distrust.

howinteresting 5y ago
That's fine, they should get shut out of public life then. That's what fully internalizing the externalities looks like.
- kcplate 5y ago
  Ya know…I seem to recall a bunch of people once thought that same exact thing about some other people about 60+ years ago. They thought they were better than the others, that the others were inferior, dirty, diseased, and less intelligent. Those powerful folks did all they could to keep the others out of stores, restaurants, front seats of buses, off water fountains, etc. and just kind of hoped those folks they hated and didn’t want in their society would just go away too.
  - deleted 5y ago
    [deleted]
  - howinteresting 5y ago
    The difference is that discrimination based on race is unjust, while discrimination based on vaccination status is just. I'll let you work out why.
    - mdp2021 5y ago
      Have you worked out the formula to correctly balance personal and collective risk, computationally? I would not dismiss the matter as trivial - I see it more as Nobel prize worth.
      - howinteresting 5y ago
        Plenty of gray areas, of course, where the decision is legitimately hard. The Vietnam draft was clearly immoral but was the World War 2 draft just? I'm really not sure. Vaccine mandates are nowhere close to that, though—the individual risk is virtually nonexistent while the collective risk is massive. The general problem does not need to be solved fully for us to move forward with public policy in clear-cut cases.
        mdp2021 5y ago
        In the specific case, you write about a «virtually nonexistent individual risk» while many¹ are yet to find such reassurance. If that statement were evidently true, one would agree with your conclusion save some details. ¹(including the brightest people I know - statement disincorporated from the above since anecdotal)
        howinteresting 5y ago
        Those people are much less bright than you think they are. There are zero people in my own social circles who didn't get vaccinated the moment they could (some live in countries where they still don't have access to vaccines). The difference might be that my social circle is mostly queer people like myself, and we know how bad pandemics can be. Again, I have very little sympathy for anti-vax people. The correct thing to do for society as a whole is to follow New York's and San Francisco's lead and exclude them from public life until they get vaccinated. Public policy can't be based on fringe pseudoscience.