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As a parent, I consider myself the "end user" of my child's device, not my child. That I might be looped in on any messages sent or received by this device is n

As a parent, I consider myself the "end user" of my child's device, not my child. That I might be looped in on any messages sent or received by this device is not at all a leak, it's a convenience—much like how I can receive messages sent to me on my phone and my laptop.

GuB-42 5y ago
When someone sends a message to your child, the message is for your child, not for you. Your child is the "end point" and you are an evesdropper. This is a case where I think it is justified, as long as your child is a minor and you are his legal guardian. But as acceptable as it is, you are still a spy and the app is spyware. The fears, justified or not, is that the same feature that can be used for parental control can also be used on adults without their consent. Personally, I think that right now, the fears are overblown, but I also think that Apple got the backlash they deserved. Privacy is not to be taken lightly, it is something that both protects freedom and helps criminals, also a strong political stance. It is not just a marketing took against Google.
- simondotau 5y ago
  > But as acceptable as it is, you are still a spy and the app is spyware. I vehemently disagree that a feature could be classed as spyware if it clearly and unambiguously declares exactly what it's going to do prior offering a choice whether or not to do it. By that logic, the mere presence of a "report phishing" button in any cloud email service would be sufficient to declare it as spyware. But fine, whatever. You're welcome to call any form of parental oversight of a child below the age of thirteen "spyware" if you like, so long as you accept that it's entirely my choice as a parent. This feature isn't on by default. If your opinions as a parent are different, don't turn it on. It's not your place to deny me access to this opt-in tool which can help keep my child safe.
  - johnmaguire 5y ago
    When I was a child, my mother refused to buy me any computers. I had to earn money mowing lawns and raking leaves to buy a laptop. Once I had a laptop, she told me she wished there was software she could install on all of her children's computers that would allow her to view what each of us was doing on her TV. I considered that spying - even if it was intentional on her part. I detested how few rights I had as a child.
    - dwaite 5y ago
      > I detested how few rights I had as a child. That is called being a teenager, I think.
      - LocalH 5y ago
        Minors deserve no privacy? Is that what you're saying?
        simondotau 5y ago
        If you're talking about teenagers, I would say there's valid debate to be had. Minors, hell no. There's no debate. Parents are entitled to know—I'd personally go further and say a responsibility to know—what's going on in their life.
        johnmaguire 5y ago
        Teenagers are minors. Doesn't sound like a very trusting environment.
        simondotau 5y ago
        I guess there's a language difference. I'm Australian.
        johnmaguire 5y ago
        The dictionary defines a minor as "a person under the age of full legal responsibility" which I think teenagers would still fall under, even in Australia? Understandably the term might be used differently or more loosely elsewhere.
  - odessacubbage 5y ago
    once given a device, a child's technical literacy will quickly surpass that of their guardian and as such, any form of 'protection' will be just as quickly circumvented. there is no technological panacea that will keep your child safe because that is not how predation happens in the real world.
    - azalemeth 5y ago
      I can't agree with this more. As a child, my technology skills were several orders of magnitude greater than my parents -- and the horrible spyware the school installed on its computers was a red rag saying "crack me" to a rapidly growing bull. These measures, arguably well-intentioned though they are, fundamentally teach kids that they don't own their devices and it's okay to spy on people. Good parenting is fundamentally different from that.
      - tekknik 5y ago
        Somewhat related. In my HS computer science class all it took was asking the teacher to use her computer to format a floppy because “my floppy drive was broken” and i needed a new disk. She agreed and not 15 mins later i had my workstation booting with no management or oversight.
    - simondotau 5y ago
      This was certainly our experience when we were children. Near universal, I'd wager. But I don't think it's nearly as true for parents born in the eighties and nineties. And to the extent that it might be true, it's still not a valid excuse for objecting to the existence of any such tools.
    - lenkite 5y ago
      Not true today. Thanks to locked-down and dumbed-down smartphones, Many parents of the PC-era are actually more tech-inclined than their children
  - mijamo 5y ago
    I would have you know that in some countries this would be illegal. A child has a right to private conversation just like any other person in many law systems. And yes it is obviously a spyware. The report phishing analogy is also completely wrong because it does not include any surveillance. You report the phishing and send the message to some authority. It is the same as going to the police after receiving a threatening mail, whereas the spyware is like the postal service opening each of your letters.
    - simondotau 5y ago
      You appear to be confused, or conflating this with something else. None of that describes the system Apple has implemented for iMessage. If the child doesn't want the adult to see anything, that's a choice available to the child.
- slownews45 5y ago
  The parent paid for the device, don't they then own it? Or can kids sign up for phone plans and buy $1,200 devices these days? Normally, if I buy a device, I want control. If I chose to get alerted to porn being sent to my 10 year old - that should be permitted. I don't care if the sender hasn't given consent, I don't give them consent to send porn or naked photos to my kids !
  - mycall 5y ago
    If you buy the device, you own the device. Software too. It is just the OS can disable itself for a string of reasons.
  - GuB-42 5y ago
    The one who pays doesn't matter. Unchecked and applied to adults that line of thinking gives right to terrible things, including slavery. Children are a different story, they are not free, they are under the control and responsibility of their legal guardians. In fact, the status of a child and the status of a slave are not so different, that's why there are very strict laws regarding child labor, because otherwise it could easily end up in actual slavery. Here the problem is not parental control, that is fine, the problem is that the backdoor is now in place and could be potentially used against adults with all the nasty implications. Again, I think the fears are overblown, but I understand that it makes people uncomfortable, especially since they may have bought an overpriced device on the premises of privacy. Most of the most egregious privacy violations start with "think of the children", even more than terrorists and covid.
    - slownews45 5y ago
      This is just such a crazy position. If I buy a car it doesn't matter that I own it? If I rent it to you I can't set the terms of that rental? This is just nuts from the EFF.
      - mijamo 5y ago
        You have the fructus but no longer the usus and associated rights. If you own an apartment it does not give you a right to set up webcams to look at the tenants.
- unityByFreedom 5y ago
  Im a parent of young ones and I wouldn't want control of my kids' devices or messages. Good parenting is about preparing your kid for the world, not jumping in whenever there is a fire. Frankly I find this attitude very creepy. At what age do you "turn off" access? If you can't handle your kid being online then don't pay for their device or phone plan.
  - tekknik 5y ago
    It’s also about building trust and a relationship with your child. I also think this behavior is creepy and would do it myself. But interestingly it is preparing them for a world in which there really are no secrets anymore.
    - unityByFreedom 5y ago
      If the world is full of goblins and demons you don't become a demon to "prepare them". You are their rock for as long as you're around, and when you're gone they'll be the rock for their children or other friends and family.
LocalH 5y ago
It's very creepy that you want to eavesdrop on your child in that way, in my opinion. This is the micro version of governments wanting ubiquitous surveillance.
- partiallyagree 5y ago
  Partially agree, there was some weirdo on another hackernews thread that monitors their 17 year old daughter's phone and has no plans to stop until Apple remove the right on the 18th birthday. Crazy. That said I think it would be reasonable to check up on your 13 year old to ensure there is no pedophiles messaging etc.. I'd probably draw the line at 14 after having a open chat about risks, peados, impersonation, social engineering etc
- simondotau 5y ago
  Do I want to eavesdrop on my pre-teen child? Hell no. Am I entitled to know when my pre-teen child has received a message that contains a potentially explicit attachment, or text which matches the traits of child grooming? Hell yes.
istingray 5y ago
The EFF's challenge is when people abuse the system (ie a partner requiring their partner to register as child), or abusive parents. From the letter: "Moreover, the system Apple has developed assumes that the "parent" and "child" accounts involved actually belong to an adult who is the parent of a child, and that those individuals have a healthy relationship. This may not always be the case; an abusive adult may be the organiser of the account, and the consequences of parental notification could threaten the child’s safety and well being. LGBTQ+ youths on family accounts with unsympathetic parents are particularly at risk." Should Apple should require verification of parental status? Ie upload birth certificate, photos of parents, child, whatever is necessary to establish true legal guardianship. Still doesn't protect the children from abusive parents though. These features need to be killed off yesterday.

GuB-42 5y ago

When someone sends a message to your child, the message is for your child, not for you. Your child is the "end point" and you are an evesdropper. This is a case where I think it is justified, as long as your child is a minor and you are his legal guardian. But as acceptable as it is, you are still a spy and the app is spyware. The fears, justified or not, is that the same feature that can be used for parental control can also be used on adults without their consent. Personally, I think that right now, the fears are overblown, but I also think that Apple got the backlash they deserved. Privacy is not to be taken lightly, it is something that both protects freedom and helps criminals, also a strong political stance. It is not just a marketing took against Google.

simondotau 5y ago
> But as acceptable as it is, you are still a spy and the app is spyware. I vehemently disagree that a feature could be classed as spyware if it clearly and unambiguously declares exactly what it's going to do prior offering a choice whether or not to do it. By that logic, the mere presence of a "report phishing" button in any cloud email service would be sufficient to declare it as spyware. But fine, whatever. You're welcome to call any form of parental oversight of a child below the age of thirteen "spyware" if you like, so long as you accept that it's entirely my choice as a parent. This feature isn't on by default. If your opinions as a parent are different, don't turn it on. It's not your place to deny me access to this opt-in tool which can help keep my child safe.
- johnmaguire 5y ago
  When I was a child, my mother refused to buy me any computers. I had to earn money mowing lawns and raking leaves to buy a laptop. Once I had a laptop, she told me she wished there was software she could install on all of her children's computers that would allow her to view what each of us was doing on her TV. I considered that spying - even if it was intentional on her part. I detested how few rights I had as a child.
  - dwaite 5y ago
    > I detested how few rights I had as a child. That is called being a teenager, I think.
    - LocalH 5y ago
      Minors deserve no privacy? Is that what you're saying?
      - simondotau 5y ago
        If you're talking about teenagers, I would say there's valid debate to be had. Minors, hell no. There's no debate. Parents are entitled to know—I'd personally go further and say a responsibility to know—what's going on in their life.
        johnmaguire 5y ago
        Teenagers are minors. Doesn't sound like a very trusting environment.
        simondotau 5y ago
        I guess there's a language difference. I'm Australian.
        johnmaguire 5y ago
        The dictionary defines a minor as "a person under the age of full legal responsibility" which I think teenagers would still fall under, even in Australia? Understandably the term might be used differently or more loosely elsewhere.
- odessacubbage 5y ago
  once given a device, a child's technical literacy will quickly surpass that of their guardian and as such, any form of 'protection' will be just as quickly circumvented. there is no technological panacea that will keep your child safe because that is not how predation happens in the real world.
  - azalemeth 5y ago
    I can't agree with this more. As a child, my technology skills were several orders of magnitude greater than my parents -- and the horrible spyware the school installed on its computers was a red rag saying "crack me" to a rapidly growing bull. These measures, arguably well-intentioned though they are, fundamentally teach kids that they don't own their devices and it's okay to spy on people. Good parenting is fundamentally different from that.
    - tekknik 5y ago
      Somewhat related. In my HS computer science class all it took was asking the teacher to use her computer to format a floppy because “my floppy drive was broken” and i needed a new disk. She agreed and not 15 mins later i had my workstation booting with no management or oversight.
  - simondotau 5y ago
    This was certainly our experience when we were children. Near universal, I'd wager. But I don't think it's nearly as true for parents born in the eighties and nineties. And to the extent that it might be true, it's still not a valid excuse for objecting to the existence of any such tools.
  - lenkite 5y ago
    Not true today. Thanks to locked-down and dumbed-down smartphones, Many parents of the PC-era are actually more tech-inclined than their children
- mijamo 5y ago
  I would have you know that in some countries this would be illegal. A child has a right to private conversation just like any other person in many law systems. And yes it is obviously a spyware. The report phishing analogy is also completely wrong because it does not include any surveillance. You report the phishing and send the message to some authority. It is the same as going to the police after receiving a threatening mail, whereas the spyware is like the postal service opening each of your letters.
  - simondotau 5y ago
    You appear to be confused, or conflating this with something else. None of that describes the system Apple has implemented for iMessage. If the child doesn't want the adult to see anything, that's a choice available to the child.
slownews45 5y ago
The parent paid for the device, don't they then own it? Or can kids sign up for phone plans and buy $1,200 devices these days? Normally, if I buy a device, I want control. If I chose to get alerted to porn being sent to my 10 year old - that should be permitted. I don't care if the sender hasn't given consent, I don't give them consent to send porn or naked photos to my kids !
- mycall 5y ago
  If you buy the device, you own the device. Software too. It is just the OS can disable itself for a string of reasons.
- GuB-42 5y ago
  The one who pays doesn't matter. Unchecked and applied to adults that line of thinking gives right to terrible things, including slavery. Children are a different story, they are not free, they are under the control and responsibility of their legal guardians. In fact, the status of a child and the status of a slave are not so different, that's why there are very strict laws regarding child labor, because otherwise it could easily end up in actual slavery. Here the problem is not parental control, that is fine, the problem is that the backdoor is now in place and could be potentially used against adults with all the nasty implications. Again, I think the fears are overblown, but I understand that it makes people uncomfortable, especially since they may have bought an overpriced device on the premises of privacy. Most of the most egregious privacy violations start with "think of the children", even more than terrorists and covid.
  - slownews45 5y ago
    This is just such a crazy position. If I buy a car it doesn't matter that I own it? If I rent it to you I can't set the terms of that rental? This is just nuts from the EFF.
    - mijamo 5y ago
      You have the fructus but no longer the usus and associated rights. If you own an apartment it does not give you a right to set up webcams to look at the tenants.
unityByFreedom 5y ago
Im a parent of young ones and I wouldn't want control of my kids' devices or messages. Good parenting is about preparing your kid for the world, not jumping in whenever there is a fire. Frankly I find this attitude very creepy. At what age do you "turn off" access? If you can't handle your kid being online then don't pay for their device or phone plan.
- tekknik 5y ago
  It’s also about building trust and a relationship with your child. I also think this behavior is creepy and would do it myself. But interestingly it is preparing them for a world in which there really are no secrets anymore.
  - unityByFreedom 5y ago
    If the world is full of goblins and demons you don't become a demon to "prepare them". You are their rock for as long as you're around, and when you're gone they'll be the rock for their children or other friends and family.

LocalH 5y ago

It's very creepy that you want to eavesdrop on your child in that way, in my opinion. This is the micro version of governments wanting ubiquitous surveillance.

partiallyagree 5y ago
Partially agree, there was some weirdo on another hackernews thread that monitors their 17 year old daughter's phone and has no plans to stop until Apple remove the right on the 18th birthday. Crazy. That said I think it would be reasonable to check up on your 13 year old to ensure there is no pedophiles messaging etc.. I'd probably draw the line at 14 after having a open chat about risks, peados, impersonation, social engineering etc
simondotau 5y ago
Do I want to eavesdrop on my pre-teen child? Hell no. Am I entitled to know when my pre-teen child has received a message that contains a potentially explicit attachment, or text which matches the traits of child grooming? Hell yes.

istingray 5y ago

The EFF's challenge is when people abuse the system (ie a partner requiring their partner to register as child), or abusive parents. From the letter: "Moreover, the system Apple has developed assumes that the "parent" and "child" accounts involved actually belong to an adult who is the parent of a child, and that those individuals have a healthy relationship. This may not always be the case; an abusive adult may be the organiser of the account, and the consequences of parental notification could threaten the child’s safety and well being. LGBTQ+ youths on family accounts with unsympathetic parents are particularly at risk." Should Apple should require verification of parental status? Ie upload birth certificate, photos of parents, child, whatever is necessary to establish true legal guardianship. Still doesn't protect the children from abusive parents though. These features need to be killed off yesterday.