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Except there are multiple states out if ICU beds because they tried this. Every person in the hospital with COVID is another person who can't use that bed to g

by enkid 5y ago

Except there are multiple states out if ICU beds because they tried this. Every person in the hospital with COVID is another person who can't use that bed to get medical treatment.

ub99 5y ago
That’s what I meant in my last sentence. Unvaccinated Covid patients should have a lower priority. I haven’t heard of any hospitals trying that.
- eightysixfour 5y ago
  Deleted incorrect information, the decision was reversed.
  - ub99 5y ago
    That sounds like a good start. I hope more hospitals will follow this example. In general, I think it’s very unhealthy to attempt to take away people’s agency and treat them as children. Don’t want to get vaccinated? Your choice. But there are consequences of this choice and we should make this consequences clear. Other than that - let people do what they want to do.
    - eightysixfour 5y ago
      Looks like they reversed the decision: https://www.dallasnews.com/news/watchdog/2021/08/19/if-north-texas-runs-out-of-icu-hospital-beds-doctors-can-consider-a-patients-vaccination-status/ https://www.dallasnews.com/news/watchdog/2021/08/19/if-north...
- howinteresting 5y ago
  What about water rationing? https://www.google.com/amp/s/pledgetimes.com/orlando-declares-water-rationing-due-to-covid-outbreak-and-oxygen-demand-in-hospitals/amp/ https://www.google.com/amp/s/pledgetimes.com/orlando-declare... You're healthy. What about immunocompromised people for whom the vaccines have only had a partial effect? https://www.google.com/amp/s/theconversation.com/amp/immunocompromised-people-make-up-nearly-half-of-covid-19-breakthrough-hospitalizations-an-extra-vaccine-dose-may-help-166241 https://www.google.com/amp/s/theconversation.com/amp/immunoc... Like it or not, we live in a society. Our decisions affect everyone else and we can't fully account for externalities. Solving these sorts of tragedies of the commons is exactly what public policy is meant to do. Personally, I think vaccine mandates need to happen yesterday. People who don't believe in the vaccines can suck it up. Facts don't care about their feelings.
  - ub99 5y ago
    Sorry do you live in the US? Do you really think a vaccine mandate is possible here? People will literally fight that with assault rifles. This situation is already tearing our society apart, there is no way any large scale mandatory vaccination project would succeed.
    - howinteresting 5y ago
      Yes, I live in the US. The way I think vaccine mandates can be done here is for every workplace, business and school to require them. Hopefully the upcoming approval of the Pfizer vaccine should unblock more of this.
      - ub99 5y ago
        OK, let’s explore that. At what level do you think this would be enforced? Federal? Completely unenforceable unless you want to involve the military domestically. State level? Obviously half of the States are not going to do that. City level? Again, completely pointless. Also, many business owners are antivaxx, why would they participate in this?
        howinteresting 5y ago
        Federal funds should be withheld from states and cities until they impose mandates (this is the traditional way the feds have exercised control over states and cities). Businesses which refuse to implement them should have their lines of credit frozen or their permits revoked. Owning a business open to the public is a privilege, not a right. There needs to be an all-out effort. The US did far more during WW2.
        ub99 5y ago
        So, for example, all federal funds should be withheld from Florida until they introduce and enforce statewide vaccination? And we are going to do that with booster shots as well? This sounds like tyranny to me.
- paulddraper 5y ago
  Now do obesity.
iammisc 5y ago
Some states are out of ICU beds due to onerous restrictions on nursing supply, like vax mandates (my own state of Oregon for example)
- sudosysgen 5y ago
  Without vaccination mandates you run the risk of an epidemic amongst nurses which can knock out 40% of your ICU beds at once. That's why nurses have to be vaccinated against dozens of illnesses.
  - iammisc 5y ago
    These nurses have been unvaccinated for more than a year while in proximity with those with COVID-19. Exactly when are 40% of the nurses going to be knocked out in this model?
    - sudosysgen 5y ago
      Nurses up until now practiced exceptionally higher restrictions to avoid this. But safety fatigue sets in and it won't work forever.
- legobmw99 5y ago
  Can you find any source which suggests that vaccine mandates are the reason for the shortage of nurses in Oregon? The first 5 results on Google for “Oregon Nurse shortage”, which are mostly from April-May, list workplace stresses and at-risk family members as reasons for the exodus. Some articles are as old as December, which is before the vaccine was even available, let alone mandated
  - iammisc 5y ago
    This is a new policy brown is enacting against the wishes of the Nurses union. There is no data yet, I'm just extrapolating based on the fact that these new requirements will cause some nurses to quit rather than be vaccinated, which will directly reduce the number of ICU beds while not contributing meaningfully to the % vaccinated. If we are only to rely on already collected empirical data to make decisions or form opinions we would never be able to hold an opinion when it matters most... before

by enkid 5y ago

Except there are multiple states out if ICU beds because they tried this. Every person in the hospital with COVID is another person who can't use that bed to get medical treatment.

ub99 5y ago

That’s what I meant in my last sentence. Unvaccinated Covid patients should have a lower priority. I haven’t heard of any hospitals trying that.

eightysixfour 5y ago
Deleted incorrect information, the decision was reversed.
- ub99 5y ago
  That sounds like a good start. I hope more hospitals will follow this example. In general, I think it’s very unhealthy to attempt to take away people’s agency and treat them as children. Don’t want to get vaccinated? Your choice. But there are consequences of this choice and we should make this consequences clear. Other than that - let people do what they want to do.
  - eightysixfour 5y ago
    Looks like they reversed the decision: https://www.dallasnews.com/news/watchdog/2021/08/19/if-north-texas-runs-out-of-icu-hospital-beds-doctors-can-consider-a-patients-vaccination-status/ https://www.dallasnews.com/news/watchdog/2021/08/19/if-north...
howinteresting 5y ago
What about water rationing? https://www.google.com/amp/s/pledgetimes.com/orlando-declares-water-rationing-due-to-covid-outbreak-and-oxygen-demand-in-hospitals/amp/ https://www.google.com/amp/s/pledgetimes.com/orlando-declare... You're healthy. What about immunocompromised people for whom the vaccines have only had a partial effect? https://www.google.com/amp/s/theconversation.com/amp/immunocompromised-people-make-up-nearly-half-of-covid-19-breakthrough-hospitalizations-an-extra-vaccine-dose-may-help-166241 https://www.google.com/amp/s/theconversation.com/amp/immunoc... Like it or not, we live in a society. Our decisions affect everyone else and we can't fully account for externalities. Solving these sorts of tragedies of the commons is exactly what public policy is meant to do. Personally, I think vaccine mandates need to happen yesterday. People who don't believe in the vaccines can suck it up. Facts don't care about their feelings.
- ub99 5y ago
  Sorry do you live in the US? Do you really think a vaccine mandate is possible here? People will literally fight that with assault rifles. This situation is already tearing our society apart, there is no way any large scale mandatory vaccination project would succeed.
  - howinteresting 5y ago
    Yes, I live in the US. The way I think vaccine mandates can be done here is for every workplace, business and school to require them. Hopefully the upcoming approval of the Pfizer vaccine should unblock more of this.
    - ub99 5y ago
      OK, let’s explore that. At what level do you think this would be enforced? Federal? Completely unenforceable unless you want to involve the military domestically. State level? Obviously half of the States are not going to do that. City level? Again, completely pointless. Also, many business owners are antivaxx, why would they participate in this?
      - howinteresting 5y ago
        Federal funds should be withheld from states and cities until they impose mandates (this is the traditional way the feds have exercised control over states and cities). Businesses which refuse to implement them should have their lines of credit frozen or their permits revoked. Owning a business open to the public is a privilege, not a right. There needs to be an all-out effort. The US did far more during WW2.
        ub99 5y ago
        So, for example, all federal funds should be withheld from Florida until they introduce and enforce statewide vaccination? And we are going to do that with booster shots as well? This sounds like tyranny to me.
paulddraper 5y ago
Now do obesity.

iammisc 5y ago

Some states are out of ICU beds due to onerous restrictions on nursing supply, like vax mandates (my own state of Oregon for example)

sudosysgen 5y ago
Without vaccination mandates you run the risk of an epidemic amongst nurses which can knock out 40% of your ICU beds at once. That's why nurses have to be vaccinated against dozens of illnesses.
- iammisc 5y ago
  These nurses have been unvaccinated for more than a year while in proximity with those with COVID-19. Exactly when are 40% of the nurses going to be knocked out in this model?
  - sudosysgen 5y ago
    Nurses up until now practiced exceptionally higher restrictions to avoid this. But safety fatigue sets in and it won't work forever.
legobmw99 5y ago
Can you find any source which suggests that vaccine mandates are the reason for the shortage of nurses in Oregon? The first 5 results on Google for “Oregon Nurse shortage”, which are mostly from April-May, list workplace stresses and at-risk family members as reasons for the exodus. Some articles are as old as December, which is before the vaccine was even available, let alone mandated
- iammisc 5y ago
  This is a new policy brown is enacting against the wishes of the Nurses union. There is no data yet, I'm just extrapolating based on the fact that these new requirements will cause some nurses to quit rather than be vaccinated, which will directly reduce the number of ICU beds while not contributing meaningfully to the % vaccinated. If we are only to rely on already collected empirical data to make decisions or form opinions we would never be able to hold an opinion when it matters most... before