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> I’m sick and tired of people saying “the science is settled” or “trust the science”. You’re right, but also, there’s more to it. There is a difference betwe

> I’m sick and tired of people saying “the science is settled” or “trust the science”. You’re right, but also, there’s more to it. There is a difference between what people say and what people mean and context is important. When I’ve heard people say “trust the science” it is always directed to people who have demonstrated that they do not understand the scientific method and the meaning of the word “healthy skepticism”. In that case what you are doing is an appeal to authority, which is completely unscientific, and necessary for building consensus. So when we hear “trust the science”, it’s really a political statement more than anything, and it intends to replace a person in a robe, or a person in a uniform with a person in a lab coat. Certainly it would be better to have an informed and well educated citizenry. But for people who live in the real world and do not want to have their society steered by people who have incompatible views with a modern society, saying “trust the science” is a shorthand for “we don’t think you have what it takes to contribute to a conversation in a meaningful way.”

throwawayboise 5y ago
> When I’ve heard people say “trust the science” it is always directed to people who have demonstrated that they do not understand the scientific method I think "always" is too strong. With regards to COVID vaccines I have heard that line thrown at people who say "this conclusion is too new, it has not stood the test of time" and now lo and behold we are seeing that the early "95% effective" rates are not holding up. In fact I would say that many of the people who say "trust the science" (politicians, etc) have no scientific background themselves and are not people we would otherwise look to for scientific opinions on anything.
- paulryanrogers 5y ago
  What evidence do you see that the effectiveness reducing hospitalization risk has decreased?
- enkid 5y ago
  The 95% effectiveness was based on the version of COVID that was circulating at the time. No one said it would be 95% effective against every possible mutation. Claiming the results of those studies are wrong instead of a result of a changing environment is itself a misunderstanding of science.
  - deleted 5y ago
    [deleted]
  - portpecos 5y ago
    The media didn’t say “Vaccines are 95% effective, except for mutations”. The media said “Vaccines are 95% effective.”
    - cdstyh 5y ago
      The media is all lies and propaganda. Stop paying attention.
  - throwawayboise 5y ago
    Claiming that the vaccines were necessary to "end the pandemic" without factoring in the possibility of variants for which the vaccines were not as effective was not scientific thinking.
    - BenjiWiebe 5y ago
      Maybe they expected 99%+ to get vaccinated before a vaccine-avoiding variant got out.
      - 650 5y ago
        They expected 7 billion+ people to get vaccinated?
    - enkid 5y ago
      Vaccines are still necessary, they just aren't sufficient.
WalterBright 5y ago
When I hear people say "trust the science" the speaker is often a non-scientist who is selectively picking what science fits their agenda and ignoring the rest. It's the same thing when somebody says "trust me, I'm a XXXXX", it's time to be very skeptical.
- BurningFrog 5y ago
  Especially when it's only a single study with a surprising result. Those go viral easily, but are usually wrong.
  - iratewizard 5y ago
    The replication crisis has been a long standing problem in social sciences and medicine. The former's darkest stain is its collective need to prove their preconceived world view. The latter's seems to be motivated by profit. I'm sure nobody is surprised that zealotry and greed have made some of science as reliable as psychic readings.
    - adolph 5y ago
      A more charitable interpretation of the tendency of error in both is that humans and the world are more complex than expected. Sure, there are examples of fraud, etc but my general intuition is that people are generally well intentioned and interested in honesty and that those qualities are not immunity from error. So, malice, incompetence or a world that defies our finite minds?
    - WalterBright 5y ago
      > The latter's seems to be motivated by profit. The same problem persists in communist countries that don't allow profit.
      - hex4def6 5y ago
        I think you can replace profit with "power". Publish or perish is true in most academic circles, regardless of government.
pessimizer 5y ago
> When I’ve heard people say “trust the science” it is always directed to people who have demonstrated that they do not understand the scientific method and the meaning of the word “healthy skepticism”. I've virtually never heard it from somebody who is a scientist or even an educated layman. Those people are usually talking about specific studies or papers. The people who say "trust the science" in my experience might as well be saying "trust the television" for all they understand of the science. And I agree they certainly are saying it "to replace a person in a robe, or a person in a uniform with a person in a lab coat." But I don't think that's a positive thing. They aren't scientists, they're NPR listeners regurgitating something they've heard.
jollybean 5y ago
"Certainly it would be better to have an informed and well educated citizenry. " Of course it would, but there's no way for people to 'stay informed' on the multitude of various things. The system we live in is fundamentally based on legitimate authority. We have no reasonable way to try to debate with our doctors, dentists, lawyers, engineers. It's literally why they exist - to understand, internalize and work with the inherent truth in a system. We trust them, that's the way it works. So how does a system that is inherently grey, be 'wrong a lot of time' but 'right in others' in a manner that is consequential (i.e. vaccines, climate change). That's a tough social problem.
satisfice 5y ago
I say “follow the science” about Covid and Global Warming, for instance. Yes, that is a political statement. It’s also rational and reasonable. I am a tester. Science is never complete, just as testing is never complete. But stupid people think they can ignore bad bugs and get away with it; and stupid people spin fantasies that maybe all those experts are completely wrong about Ivermectin or vaccines. Trust science is just a way of saying “hey fella, there are people who have devoted their careers to knowing this. Let’s hear from them and take them seriously.”
- 650 5y ago
  It is difficult to get a man to understand something when his salary depends upon his not understanding it.

throwawayboise 5y ago

> When I’ve heard people say “trust the science” it is always directed to people who have demonstrated that they do not understand the scientific method I think "always" is too strong. With regards to COVID vaccines I have heard that line thrown at people who say "this conclusion is too new, it has not stood the test of time" and now lo and behold we are seeing that the early "95% effective" rates are not holding up. In fact I would say that many of the people who say "trust the science" (politicians, etc) have no scientific background themselves and are not people we would otherwise look to for scientific opinions on anything.

paulryanrogers 5y ago
What evidence do you see that the effectiveness reducing hospitalization risk has decreased?
enkid 5y ago
The 95% effectiveness was based on the version of COVID that was circulating at the time. No one said it would be 95% effective against every possible mutation. Claiming the results of those studies are wrong instead of a result of a changing environment is itself a misunderstanding of science.
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
- portpecos 5y ago
  The media didn’t say “Vaccines are 95% effective, except for mutations”. The media said “Vaccines are 95% effective.”
  - cdstyh 5y ago
    The media is all lies and propaganda. Stop paying attention.
- throwawayboise 5y ago
  Claiming that the vaccines were necessary to "end the pandemic" without factoring in the possibility of variants for which the vaccines were not as effective was not scientific thinking.
  - BenjiWiebe 5y ago
    Maybe they expected 99%+ to get vaccinated before a vaccine-avoiding variant got out.
    - 650 5y ago
      They expected 7 billion+ people to get vaccinated?
  - enkid 5y ago
    Vaccines are still necessary, they just aren't sufficient.

WalterBright 5y ago

When I hear people say "trust the science" the speaker is often a non-scientist who is selectively picking what science fits their agenda and ignoring the rest. It's the same thing when somebody says "trust me, I'm a XXXXX", it's time to be very skeptical.

BurningFrog 5y ago
Especially when it's only a single study with a surprising result. Those go viral easily, but are usually wrong.
- iratewizard 5y ago
  The replication crisis has been a long standing problem in social sciences and medicine. The former's darkest stain is its collective need to prove their preconceived world view. The latter's seems to be motivated by profit. I'm sure nobody is surprised that zealotry and greed have made some of science as reliable as psychic readings.
  - adolph 5y ago
    A more charitable interpretation of the tendency of error in both is that humans and the world are more complex than expected. Sure, there are examples of fraud, etc but my general intuition is that people are generally well intentioned and interested in honesty and that those qualities are not immunity from error. So, malice, incompetence or a world that defies our finite minds?
  - WalterBright 5y ago
    > The latter's seems to be motivated by profit. The same problem persists in communist countries that don't allow profit.
    - hex4def6 5y ago
      I think you can replace profit with "power". Publish or perish is true in most academic circles, regardless of government.

pessimizer 5y ago

> When I’ve heard people say “trust the science” it is always directed to people who have demonstrated that they do not understand the scientific method and the meaning of the word “healthy skepticism”. I've virtually never heard it from somebody who is a scientist or even an educated layman. Those people are usually talking about specific studies or papers. The people who say "trust the science" in my experience might as well be saying "trust the television" for all they understand of the science. And I agree they certainly are saying it "to replace a person in a robe, or a person in a uniform with a person in a lab coat." But I don't think that's a positive thing. They aren't scientists, they're NPR listeners regurgitating something they've heard.

jollybean 5y ago

"Certainly it would be better to have an informed and well educated citizenry. " Of course it would, but there's no way for people to 'stay informed' on the multitude of various things. The system we live in is fundamentally based on legitimate authority. We have no reasonable way to try to debate with our doctors, dentists, lawyers, engineers. It's literally why they exist - to understand, internalize and work with the inherent truth in a system. We trust them, that's the way it works. So how does a system that is inherently grey, be 'wrong a lot of time' but 'right in others' in a manner that is consequential (i.e. vaccines, climate change). That's a tough social problem.

satisfice 5y ago

I say “follow the science” about Covid and Global Warming, for instance. Yes, that is a political statement. It’s also rational and reasonable. I am a tester. Science is never complete, just as testing is never complete. But stupid people think they can ignore bad bugs and get away with it; and stupid people spin fantasies that maybe all those experts are completely wrong about Ivermectin or vaccines. Trust science is just a way of saying “hey fella, there are people who have devoted their careers to knowing this. Let’s hear from them and take them seriously.”

650 5y ago
It is difficult to get a man to understand something when his salary depends upon his not understanding it.