5 ms·

>> If he's dealing with an idiot sandwich... They are still human beings that should be treated with dignity.

by rafale 5y ago

zpeti 5y ago
There is something about the vocal rejection of mediocrity and bad work that creates some great things. It also attracts young naive geniuses who want to be abused but create greatness. I’ve seen the same in the contemporary art world. From Gordon Ramsey to Steve Jobs to the film whiplash. People who are very vocal about wanting the best can get it. And don’t forget. Literally anyone who decides to work with Gordon Ramsey or Steve Jobs knows what they are like. They did it willingly. They aren’t abusing random innocent souls. They are expecting the best from people who decided to work with them.
- JasonFruit 5y ago
  The pyramids were built with slave labor, but that's hardly an argument for slavery.
  - MichaelGroves 5y ago
    I believe this is now generally regarded as a misconception, since there are records of the workers being paid. However it can be difficult to tease out the true nature of this work in the historic context, since the way such workers would be paid at the time would likely look like slavery in the modern context (e.g. being paid in grain.) There is also the orthogonal matter of paid/unpaid work, vs forced/unforced work; somebody who is forced to work but is also paid may still be considered a slave.
    - JasonFruit 5y ago
      Those are worthwhile caveats. The reasoning of my point still stands, even if I'm factually in error.
- legerdemain 5y ago
  To this day, the movie Whiplash is one of the greatest illustrations of how a demanding mentor can produce tremendous results.
  - amanaplanacanal 5y ago
    I dunno. It's fiction. It may or may not have any relevance in the real world.
- enkid 5y ago
  This is abuse apologia. The exact same argument could be applied to allow any sort of abusive behavior from sexual harassment to physical abuse to breaking safety laws. Just because someone gives you a paycheck does not mean they get to abuse you mentally, physically or verbally.
  - zpeti 5y ago
    I know in the modern world any vocal criticism of anyone is not allowed. Everyone is very fragile apparently. But you can bet you’re missing out on some great work not being produced because of it. Also my point about voluntary participation still stands. People choose to work for Gordon Ramsey. He’s not abusing random people in the street.
    - enkid 5y ago
      You can give honest feedback to someone without verbally abusing them. In fact, not giving honest feedback can be a form of mental abuse. I'm a strong believer in continuous honest communication, but that doesn't have to be in the form of yelling at someone.
    - legerdemain 5y ago
      This rejection of vocal criticism as the driver of brilliant creativity is very similar to the "enlightened" rejection of the idea that the greatest accomplishments often come from the darkest places where we're often too afraid to look. Would some of mankind's greatest musicians, such as Elliott Smith, Kurt Cobain, and Beethoven, have created their music if they weren't dealing with some tough shit?
      - JadeNB 5y ago
        > Would some of mankind's greatest musicians, such as Elliott Smith, Kurt Cobain, and Beethoven, have created their music if they weren't dealing with some tough shit? Would you therefore claim that people should intentionally be subjected to these conditions? I think one can acknowledge that great creativity comes from dark places without celebrating, welcoming, or, worst, inflicting those dark places.
- tshaddox 5y ago
  Is there any evidence to suggest that people who rise to greatness in abusive environments would not have risen to greatness in an environment that isn’t abusive?
- diskzero 5y ago
  I worked for Steve Jobs and I wouldn't say I knew what he was like. I had an outsiders view of what he was, and while there were some stories of his behavior, a lot of the details weren't out there. This was before the world of blogs, Twitter, Gawker or wherever people now share this sort of information. Once you start working in an environment with a Steve Jobs type, things become complex and conflicted. You feel that you are doing great work, and sometimes you are. A Steve Jobs type will figure out how to motivate you with some percentage of shame, praise, monetary rewards or whatever combination allows them to drive you to generate the results they want. Saying people want to be abused in pursuit of creating greatness is a vast oversimplification of the dynamics that occur in these types of relationships. It is an interesting dynamic that develops over time and is in general quite unhealthy. I still have Steve trauma to this day! I don't want to equate it with more damaging forms of physical and emotional abuse, but there was damage done.
  - tailspin2019 5y ago
    This is interesting. There are similar "stories" about Elon Musk. Perhaps not quite the same as Jobs, but in the same vein. I've often wondered about this personality type of the emotionally unregulated, genius leader, who gets amazing things done, but can leave a bit of a wake behind them of slightly damaged people (both professionally and personally). Is this really the only way to get great things done? Or is it just that these individuals get talked about a lot, and meanwhile the well balanced emotionally intelligent leaders are quietly working away, respecting their team and also doing groundbreaking stuff... Anyway, never seen anyone talk about working for Steve here, so thanks for sharing your insights!
    - diskzero 5y ago
      I would hope that the majority of "great" things that are getting done are on teams that are managed in thoughtful, healthy and constructive ways. The Steve Jobs way of doing things worked in that he was able to motivate small teams of people to generate results quickly to solve problems that were quite difficult. The market both rewarded and punished him for this. It would be nice to get away from personality cult product development. If there is a process to do this, I am all for it!
celticninja 5y ago
Except in the US series where they must require him to be more abrasive for better TV. There is a different chef Ramsey in the UK version.
doikor 5y ago
If you watch his UK shows basically it boils down to if you call yourself a professional chef he expect you to be one. If you are not then he will get angry. But on many occasions you see someone in the kitchen that just straight up say they have no clue what they are doing and you get to see him teach them without any of the yelling etc.
hhsub 5y ago
This new thing where everybody deserves respect and dignity has to stop.

>> If he's dealing with an idiot sandwich... They are still human beings that should be treated with dignity.

by rafale 5y ago

>> If he's dealing with an idiot sandwich... They are still human beings that should be treated with dignity.

There is something about the vocal rejection of mediocrity and bad work that creates some great things. It also attracts young naive geniuses who want to be abused but create greatness. I’ve seen the same in the contemporary art world. From Gordon Ramsey to Steve Jobs to the film whiplash. People who are very vocal about wanting the best can get it. And don’t forget. Literally anyone who decides to work with Gordon Ramsey or Steve Jobs knows what they are like. They did it willingly. They aren’t abusing random innocent souls. They are expecting the best from people who decided to work with them.

JasonFruit 5y ago
The pyramids were built with slave labor, but that's hardly an argument for slavery.
- MichaelGroves 5y ago
  I believe this is now generally regarded as a misconception, since there are records of the workers being paid. However it can be difficult to tease out the true nature of this work in the historic context, since the way such workers would be paid at the time would likely look like slavery in the modern context (e.g. being paid in grain.) There is also the orthogonal matter of paid/unpaid work, vs forced/unforced work; somebody who is forced to work but is also paid may still be considered a slave.
  - JasonFruit 5y ago
    Those are worthwhile caveats. The reasoning of my point still stands, even if I'm factually in error.
legerdemain 5y ago
To this day, the movie Whiplash is one of the greatest illustrations of how a demanding mentor can produce tremendous results.
- amanaplanacanal 5y ago
  I dunno. It's fiction. It may or may not have any relevance in the real world.
enkid 5y ago
This is abuse apologia. The exact same argument could be applied to allow any sort of abusive behavior from sexual harassment to physical abuse to breaking safety laws. Just because someone gives you a paycheck does not mean they get to abuse you mentally, physically or verbally.
- zpeti 5y ago
  I know in the modern world any vocal criticism of anyone is not allowed. Everyone is very fragile apparently. But you can bet you’re missing out on some great work not being produced because of it. Also my point about voluntary participation still stands. People choose to work for Gordon Ramsey. He’s not abusing random people in the street.
  - enkid 5y ago
    You can give honest feedback to someone without verbally abusing them. In fact, not giving honest feedback can be a form of mental abuse. I'm a strong believer in continuous honest communication, but that doesn't have to be in the form of yelling at someone.
  - legerdemain 5y ago
    This rejection of vocal criticism as the driver of brilliant creativity is very similar to the "enlightened" rejection of the idea that the greatest accomplishments often come from the darkest places where we're often too afraid to look. Would some of mankind's greatest musicians, such as Elliott Smith, Kurt Cobain, and Beethoven, have created their music if they weren't dealing with some tough shit?
    - JadeNB 5y ago
      > Would some of mankind's greatest musicians, such as Elliott Smith, Kurt Cobain, and Beethoven, have created their music if they weren't dealing with some tough shit? Would you therefore claim that people should intentionally be subjected to these conditions? I think one can acknowledge that great creativity comes from dark places without celebrating, welcoming, or, worst, inflicting those dark places.
tshaddox 5y ago
Is there any evidence to suggest that people who rise to greatness in abusive environments would not have risen to greatness in an environment that isn’t abusive?
diskzero 5y ago
I worked for Steve Jobs and I wouldn't say I knew what he was like. I had an outsiders view of what he was, and while there were some stories of his behavior, a lot of the details weren't out there. This was before the world of blogs, Twitter, Gawker or wherever people now share this sort of information. Once you start working in an environment with a Steve Jobs type, things become complex and conflicted. You feel that you are doing great work, and sometimes you are. A Steve Jobs type will figure out how to motivate you with some percentage of shame, praise, monetary rewards or whatever combination allows them to drive you to generate the results they want. Saying people want to be abused in pursuit of creating greatness is a vast oversimplification of the dynamics that occur in these types of relationships. It is an interesting dynamic that develops over time and is in general quite unhealthy. I still have Steve trauma to this day! I don't want to equate it with more damaging forms of physical and emotional abuse, but there was damage done.
- tailspin2019 5y ago
  This is interesting. There are similar "stories" about Elon Musk. Perhaps not quite the same as Jobs, but in the same vein. I've often wondered about this personality type of the emotionally unregulated, genius leader, who gets amazing things done, but can leave a bit of a wake behind them of slightly damaged people (both professionally and personally). Is this really the only way to get great things done? Or is it just that these individuals get talked about a lot, and meanwhile the well balanced emotionally intelligent leaders are quietly working away, respecting their team and also doing groundbreaking stuff... Anyway, never seen anyone talk about working for Steve here, so thanks for sharing your insights!
  - diskzero 5y ago
    I would hope that the majority of "great" things that are getting done are on teams that are managed in thoughtful, healthy and constructive ways. The Steve Jobs way of doing things worked in that he was able to motivate small teams of people to generate results quickly to solve problems that were quite difficult. The market both rewarded and punished him for this. It would be nice to get away from personality cult product development. If there is a process to do this, I am all for it!

celticninja 5y ago

Except in the US series where they must require him to be more abrasive for better TV. There is a different chef Ramsey in the UK version.

doikor 5y ago

If you watch his UK shows basically it boils down to if you call yourself a professional chef he expect you to be one. If you are not then he will get angry. But on many occasions you see someone in the kitchen that just straight up say they have no clue what they are doing and you get to see him teach them without any of the yelling etc.

hhsub 5y ago

This new thing where everybody deserves respect and dignity has to stop.