5 ms·

I find some of the media mentioned hard to watch, like I would video of any other psychological or physical abuse. I'm not a bleeding heart, but I think that s

I find some of the media mentioned hard to watch, like I would video of any other psychological or physical abuse. I'm not a bleeding heart, but I think that sort of "reality" TV is our little Coliseum.

civilized 5y ago
NurtureShock, a book about parenting and child development research, has a chapter discussing how children's television shows kids behaving badly for dramatic reasons, followed by a resolution that "teaches a lesson". It turns out that, instead of learning the lesson, kids just internalize the bad behavior. I wonder if a similar phenomenon happens with adults, especially since these reality shows don't even have the redeeming/lesson element. These shows reinforce dysfunctional culture by making it look normal and/or exciting.
- germinalphrase 5y ago
  I’ve heard of similar research around language use: young children tend to focus on nouns and verbs to the exclusion of adverbs, etc, so “don’t throw sand at Tommy” may reinforce “throw sand at Tommy” as the “don’t” is subconsciously elided. (A more effective phrasing might be ‘keep the sand on the ground’)
  - lahvak 5y ago
    I am very skeptical about this. I remember enough from my own childhood to know that a request "Don't throw sand at Tommy" would be met with "OK, that make sense, Tommy probably does not want to have sand thrown at him" kind of reaction, while my reaction to "keep the sand on the ground" would immediately be "why? what if I want to play with it, build a sand castle from it, ...".
    - germinalphrase 5y ago
      The point is mostly referring to very young children - under age five. Most people don’t remember much before then, so your remembered childhood self is probably older than the demo of this argument.
wutbrodo 5y ago
I fully agree. I hate to say it, but I don't even have a model of the type of person who enjoys shows like those.
- jka 5y ago
  I'd venture that some of it at least is a combination of two factors: - Compulsive and systematic abusers can make their way to powerful positions in the majority of modern organizations, where hierarchy and a lack of empathy can provide them with an edge. - Normal people who suffer abuse - even if it's indirectly, and even if they're not really aware or able to articulate that something is wrong (for example, if they've experienced angry comments or unnecessary work from a manager, who is in fact simply passing down unpleasant demands they've received from above) are comforted and sedated by seeing that kind of abuse normalized on a "respectable" / "popular" television show. If that theory is accurate, it wouldn't necessarily mean you have to be sympathetic to either population. It's just a possible way to understand the circumstances that lead normal people to spend their downtime with shows like this. Understanding can lead to empathy, and with both it's possible to find improvements. Change without understanding and empathy can be risky.
ouid 5y ago
I have noticed that, on reddit at least, entertainment has a very strong region from which it converges to "getting off on feeling smarter/better than other people". This is based on my own experience filtering subs from r/all when I notice that this is the experience that they are providing. The filter list is currently dozens to hundreds of subreddits long, and almost all of them have several hundred thousand subscribers. I suspect, based on these anecdata, that television has the same convergence properties, and the abusive reality TV spectacle is mostly about assuaging viewers' inferiority complexes in the same way. "Look at how badly this person is running this restaurant, at least you aren't as dumb as they are", "Look at these idiots taking this dating show seriously. If I were a contestant on the bachelor, I would never ____", etc. (I am not intrinsically opposed to the notion that it's just gladiatorial spectacle, but I have been acutely aware of this force for a while now, and try to shoehorn it into explaining every social malady.)
- rnd0 5y ago
  I don't disagree with what you're saying necessarily or with the negative implications of that genre of reality tv. But for me, specifically with Gorden Ramsey's shows, the appeal is different. To me, it's about watching someone who tries to pull one over on Ramsey and fails miserably. The deciept is a part of the appeal (sometimes the deceipt is self deciept, admittedly).
tailspin2019 5y ago
I'm the same. I've always despised (for example) Gordon Ramsay's abusive style and never quite understood the appeal of a show that demonstrated such bad treatment of fellow humans. I don't care how you dress it up -- high standards, toughening them up etc. etc.-- it's just a fucking horrible way to treat people. And even if you can somehow justify it, what is it about working in a kitchen of all places that necessitates treating staff like utter shit? I can think of much higher stakes careers where this type of treatment would never happen nor be deemed to be "required" for any reason whatsoever. It's even more reprehensible when you consider the position of power these people are in, and how those keen to get into the industry are more likely to submit themselves to this demeaning behaviour for the sake of their career. And even even more so when you consider what a wide reach these people have in terms of audience. How many young people are they being a bad role model for. Finally, an admission of hypocrisy on my part (given the above); I recently watched and enjoyed quite a few episodes of Gordon Ramsay's courses on Masterclass, where mercifully he is alone in his kitchen, with no one to abuse, and is actually quite cordial and charismatic. I've never given a crap about cooking before, and watched an episode on a whim and found myself quite inspired. So that at least seems to imply that there is an alternative way of presenting cooking shows without ripping junior staff to shreds. (Or alternatively, it implies that I'm a hypocrite and you should ignore everything I say).

civilized 5y ago

NurtureShock, a book about parenting and child development research, has a chapter discussing how children's television shows kids behaving badly for dramatic reasons, followed by a resolution that "teaches a lesson". It turns out that, instead of learning the lesson, kids just internalize the bad behavior. I wonder if a similar phenomenon happens with adults, especially since these reality shows don't even have the redeeming/lesson element. These shows reinforce dysfunctional culture by making it look normal and/or exciting.

germinalphrase 5y ago
I’ve heard of similar research around language use: young children tend to focus on nouns and verbs to the exclusion of adverbs, etc, so “don’t throw sand at Tommy” may reinforce “throw sand at Tommy” as the “don’t” is subconsciously elided. (A more effective phrasing might be ‘keep the sand on the ground’)
- lahvak 5y ago
  I am very skeptical about this. I remember enough from my own childhood to know that a request "Don't throw sand at Tommy" would be met with "OK, that make sense, Tommy probably does not want to have sand thrown at him" kind of reaction, while my reaction to "keep the sand on the ground" would immediately be "why? what if I want to play with it, build a sand castle from it, ...".
  - germinalphrase 5y ago
    The point is mostly referring to very young children - under age five. Most people don’t remember much before then, so your remembered childhood self is probably older than the demo of this argument.

wutbrodo 5y ago

I fully agree. I hate to say it, but I don't even have a model of the type of person who enjoys shows like those.

jka 5y ago
I'd venture that some of it at least is a combination of two factors: - Compulsive and systematic abusers can make their way to powerful positions in the majority of modern organizations, where hierarchy and a lack of empathy can provide them with an edge. - Normal people who suffer abuse - even if it's indirectly, and even if they're not really aware or able to articulate that something is wrong (for example, if they've experienced angry comments or unnecessary work from a manager, who is in fact simply passing down unpleasant demands they've received from above) are comforted and sedated by seeing that kind of abuse normalized on a "respectable" / "popular" television show. If that theory is accurate, it wouldn't necessarily mean you have to be sympathetic to either population. It's just a possible way to understand the circumstances that lead normal people to spend their downtime with shows like this. Understanding can lead to empathy, and with both it's possible to find improvements. Change without understanding and empathy can be risky.

ouid 5y ago

I have noticed that, on reddit at least, entertainment has a very strong region from which it converges to "getting off on feeling smarter/better than other people". This is based on my own experience filtering subs from r/all when I notice that this is the experience that they are providing. The filter list is currently dozens to hundreds of subreddits long, and almost all of them have several hundred thousand subscribers. I suspect, based on these anecdata, that television has the same convergence properties, and the abusive reality TV spectacle is mostly about assuaging viewers' inferiority complexes in the same way. "Look at how badly this person is running this restaurant, at least you aren't as dumb as they are", "Look at these idiots taking this dating show seriously. If I were a contestant on the bachelor, I would never ____", etc. (I am not intrinsically opposed to the notion that it's just gladiatorial spectacle, but I have been acutely aware of this force for a while now, and try to shoehorn it into explaining every social malady.)

rnd0 5y ago
I don't disagree with what you're saying necessarily or with the negative implications of that genre of reality tv. But for me, specifically with Gorden Ramsey's shows, the appeal is different. To me, it's about watching someone who tries to pull one over on Ramsey and fails miserably. The deciept is a part of the appeal (sometimes the deceipt is self deciept, admittedly).

tailspin2019 5y ago

I'm the same. I've always despised (for example) Gordon Ramsay's abusive style and never quite understood the appeal of a show that demonstrated such bad treatment of fellow humans. I don't care how you dress it up -- high standards, toughening them up etc. etc.-- it's just a fucking horrible way to treat people. And even if you can somehow justify it, what is it about working in a kitchen of all places that necessitates treating staff like utter shit? I can think of much higher stakes careers where this type of treatment would never happen nor be deemed to be "required" for any reason whatsoever. It's even more reprehensible when you consider the position of power these people are in, and how those keen to get into the industry are more likely to submit themselves to this demeaning behaviour for the sake of their career. And even even more so when you consider what a wide reach these people have in terms of audience. How many young people are they being a bad role model for. Finally, an admission of hypocrisy on my part (given the above); I recently watched and enjoyed quite a few episodes of Gordon Ramsay's courses on Masterclass, where mercifully he is alone in his kitchen, with no one to abuse, and is actually quite cordial and charismatic. I've never given a crap about cooking before, and watched an episode on a whim and found myself quite inspired. So that at least seems to imply that there is an alternative way of presenting cooking shows without ripping junior staff to shreds. (Or alternatively, it implies that I'm a hypocrite and you should ignore everything I say).