4 ms·

In Linux, it often feels like the whole OS is the IDE. In the same shell, you can edit source files, compile, debug, execute, rename, search, create and execute

In Linux, it often feels like the whole OS is the IDE. In the same shell, you can edit source files, compile, debug, execute, rename, search, create and execute scripts to do literally anything with any language, use git, surf the web, update, reboot, launch a game, etc, etc. An IDE on top of that always felt restricting to me. Like why limit yourself? But maybe that's a windows/Mac thing.

bitwize 5y ago
What about refactoring tools? What about integrated debugging, stepping right into the code you're editing on your screen? What about hot reload? If Unixheads would stop pretending their stone-knives-and-bearskins development tools were equivalent to full-fledged IDEs, development would have advanced much more than it has decades ago.
- fartcannon 5y ago
  I use both, one method is just less restrictive.
  - mst 5y ago
    The whole "real men use vi" type superiority complex failure mode is intensely annoying (and I say this as somebody who often has original ex-vi installed) but the inverted version where you just have a superiority complex from the opposite direction isn't actually any better. It continues to amaze me that "it's worth becoming familiar with a wide range of tools and then pick the one that's going to work best for you in any given situation" is a concept so many people have trouble with.
    - fartcannon 5y ago
      Def. Just be careful not to read passion as a superiority complex, or a recommendation as condemnation.
      - mst 5y ago
        This is why normally I err on the side of complaining at "anti-IDE" people since my setup is way more minimalist than most of theirs so at least I'm complaining about people who're theoretically on the same side :)
- pittmajp 5y ago
  We have that to. We even have post Mortem debugging. Did you know you can load a core dump into gdb? To me it seems like a new generation of developers is reinventing the wheel because they don’t know about what tools are available.
- ByteJockey 5y ago
  > What about refactoring tools? The old unix editors have had rename across project, find references, go to definition/implementation for several years at this point via lsps (the same way vscode gets its functionality). > What about integrated debugging Those are usually (slightly ecosystem dependent) wrappers around a terminal debugger. > What about hot reload? Correct me if I'm wrong, but these are also wrappers around cli functionality (once again, might be ecosystem dependent). And you're probably just saving yourself the trouble of writing/running a script.
  - p_j_w 5y ago
    >>What about integrated debugging >Those are usually (slightly ecosystem dependent) wrappers around a terminal debugger. And, in my experience, are vastly more convenient than terminal debuggers alone.
detaro 5y ago
Running an IDE doesn't stop me interacting with the shell, why would it?
- fartcannon 5y ago
  In fact lots of IDEs have a nice little terminal baked in to use. Just depends which way you wanna go about using these tools, yah know?
  - deleted 5y ago
    [deleted]
teddyh 5y ago
> the whole OS is the IDE This view is exactly the view esposed by Brian W. Kernighan and Rob Pike in The Unix Programming Environment from 1984: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Unix_Programming_Environment https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Unix_Programming_Environme...
hsn915 5y ago
The whole system is the IDE in the sense that it's meant to be an "integrated development environment". But that's not really a good thing: you only have one system, therefore only one environment. For example: How do you use multiple versions of the same library for different project? It's not an easy thing to do if you rely on the system paths for libraries. It's much better if libraries are just a thing you install to the current project rather than being a system wide thing.

bitwize 5y ago

What about refactoring tools? What about integrated debugging, stepping right into the code you're editing on your screen? What about hot reload? If Unixheads would stop pretending their stone-knives-and-bearskins development tools were equivalent to full-fledged IDEs, development would have advanced much more than it has decades ago.

fartcannon 5y ago
I use both, one method is just less restrictive.
- mst 5y ago
  The whole "real men use vi" type superiority complex failure mode is intensely annoying (and I say this as somebody who often has original ex-vi installed) but the inverted version where you just have a superiority complex from the opposite direction isn't actually any better. It continues to amaze me that "it's worth becoming familiar with a wide range of tools and then pick the one that's going to work best for you in any given situation" is a concept so many people have trouble with.
  - fartcannon 5y ago
    Def. Just be careful not to read passion as a superiority complex, or a recommendation as condemnation.
    - mst 5y ago
      This is why normally I err on the side of complaining at "anti-IDE" people since my setup is way more minimalist than most of theirs so at least I'm complaining about people who're theoretically on the same side :)
pittmajp 5y ago
We have that to. We even have post Mortem debugging. Did you know you can load a core dump into gdb? To me it seems like a new generation of developers is reinventing the wheel because they don’t know about what tools are available.
ByteJockey 5y ago
> What about refactoring tools? The old unix editors have had rename across project, find references, go to definition/implementation for several years at this point via lsps (the same way vscode gets its functionality). > What about integrated debugging Those are usually (slightly ecosystem dependent) wrappers around a terminal debugger. > What about hot reload? Correct me if I'm wrong, but these are also wrappers around cli functionality (once again, might be ecosystem dependent). And you're probably just saving yourself the trouble of writing/running a script.
- p_j_w 5y ago
  >>What about integrated debugging >Those are usually (slightly ecosystem dependent) wrappers around a terminal debugger. And, in my experience, are vastly more convenient than terminal debuggers alone.

detaro 5y ago

Running an IDE doesn't stop me interacting with the shell, why would it?

fartcannon 5y ago
In fact lots of IDEs have a nice little terminal baked in to use. Just depends which way you wanna go about using these tools, yah know?
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]

teddyh 5y ago

> the whole OS is the IDE This view is exactly the view esposed by Brian W. Kernighan and Rob Pike in The Unix Programming Environment from 1984: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Unix_Programming_Environment https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Unix_Programming_Environme...

hsn915 5y ago

The whole system is the IDE in the sense that it's meant to be an "integrated development environment". But that's not really a good thing: you only have one system, therefore only one environment. For example: How do you use multiple versions of the same library for different project? It's not an easy thing to do if you rely on the system paths for libraries. It's much better if libraries are just a thing you install to the current project rather than being a system wide thing.