5 ms·

Japan’s Sixth-Gen F-X Fighter Jet

58 points by mardiyah 5y ago

AbrahamParangi 5y ago
Often relevant: http://www.paulgraham.com/submarine.html http://www.paulgraham.com/submarine.html
sorokod 5y ago
According to the article, there is no accepted definition of "sixth generation". Pretty gutsy to embark on a multi billion project with a goal like this.
- tyingq 5y ago
  It reads like "anything being designed with (planned) capabilities that notably exceed the F-22, F-35, Su-57, and the J-20".
- SkeuomorphicBee 5y ago
  The "sixth generation" term is just a pop-sci (pop-engineering?) and marketing term thrown when referring to such project on the media, it is not a formal goal of the project. The goals of the project seem to be quite well defined, they selected a very specific set of advancements in aviation (composite airframe, electronic actuators, fly-by-fiber, etc), and warfare (electronic warfare, networking, microwave attack, etc). The article gives me the impression that it is a well managed pragmatic project based on some cutting edge concepts without going into "pie in the sky" territory.
  - sorokod 5y ago
    What heuristic do you employ to decide what part of the article is marketing and what part indicates "a well managed project"?
- scoopertrooper 5y ago
  It's not like America, the EU, Russia, and China get together for a little meeting every few years to agree on a common specification for the next generation of fighter jets.
- sekia 5y ago
  Japan's government sometimes promote their project as an research/development for new generation product, I've never heared any of such projects established a new global standard, though: - According to JGSDF their latest Type 10 MBT[1] is world's first 4th gen tank, in spite of that its spec except software feature (like C4I capability) is virtually equivalent to modern 3rd gen tanks - Back in 80s MITI had invested over 50 billion yen into a parallel Prolog machine, labeled as a "5th gen computer"[2] [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Type_10 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Type_10 [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fifth_generation_computer https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fifth_generation_computer
nurgasemetey 5y ago
They could start with smaller and more feasible thinks like UAV instead of going to fighter jet.
- Reason077 5y ago
  Yeah, I'm kind of surprised that anyone is still expecting fighters to be a thing beyond the current "fifth generation". Won't UAVs, with varying degrees of autonomy, be able to outmanoeuvre and outperform a fighter that has the additional burden of having to carry a pilot and all the extra hardware associated with that?
  - SiempreViernes 5y ago
    Close in dogfighting isn't a very big part of modern air combat, the real use for crazy manoeuvrers is avoiding missiles and those are already not burdened by keeping a human operator alive. There is some scope for a manoeuvrers competition between the larger fighter class UAVs and current gen missiles, but the purpose built and smaller machine will always win the agility fight eventually so it doesn't seem like a very fruitful contest to enter from the perspective of the fighter manufacturer.
  - touisteur 5y ago
    I was going to lob a joke about Japan having already tried the drone thing in WW2 but I think the real advantage there is situational awareness. Drones might become extensions of the fighter jet, and probably the right 'next step' after all the amraam generation. I feel they're signaling that they're going for 'skin in the game'...
  - JohnBooty 5y ago
    The advantages of UAVs are massive, numerous, and obvious. The only military advantages I can really think of manned fighters would be the increased situational awareness of a manned craft: the pilot has a panoramic view of their surroundings thanks to the fighter's canopy and being able to look around. Although, this seems like something drones could achieve relatively easily, providing a 360 degree view to their remote pilots. Manned craft also have the ability to function autonomously if communications are down due to jamming, I guess? Drones could proceed toward a preselected target even without comms, of course, but a based on my layman's understanding of air combat decision-making is a huge element of combat flight. Things are messy, confusing, and ever-evolving.
Invictus0 5y ago
I hope they are prepared to spend 5x their present budget.
SV_BubbleTime 5y ago
Other than EMI, and weight of wire, what could possibly be the reason for the fiber optic “fly by light” system? All of the user controls are way “slow” anyway. Something about that makes me think translation error or marketing. I can’t imagine the “drive by x” (“fly by x”) systems being so high bandwidth.
- desine 5y ago
  I think those are two very valid concerns when building a top of the line fighter jet. Especially if EM weapons become a more realistic threat, as each fly-by-wire wire is effectively an antenna. If you're shielding against EM weapons, the weight will quickly stack up more than just the signal wire.
  - SV_BubbleTime 5y ago
    > If you're shielding against EM weapons, the weight will quickly stack up more than just the signal wire. Agreed. The signal wire while being large antenna for EMI isn’t a problem at all. Filters, rugged transceivers, chokes and your problem is solved there. EMP is a threat where you are able to load all traces on the PCB and in the chips themselves with varying potentials instantly. We’re used to securing transients on the signal lines. Not on the 10mm trace from chipA to chipB.
- JohnBooty 5y ago
  Other than EMI, and weight of wire, what could possibly be the reason for the fiber optic “fly by light” system? All of the user controls are way “slow” anyway. Those are some powerful upsides. What are the downsides, if any?
  - SV_BubbleTime 5y ago
    Lots. Your modulator/demodulator went from being a simple transceiver chip to a whole laser module. Fiber optics handle cuts and “wire” damage poorly compared to copper. It isn’t as easy repair or maintain, even a simple continuity test now requires specialized equipment and you can’t probe but rather need to plug in at each point, ok but what if your issue is the connector? Fiber is always point A to point B, which doesn’t mean you can’t HUB or DaisyChain or STAR, but isn’t as easy as some copper systems like CAN, FLEX, and maybe others that can just splice together. Double any complexity because these systems are redundantly run. I’m not sure how big an issue is with EMI. Nor do I know the bandwidth. It’s just that the most complex vehicles today, they’re most well under 800kbps for the chassis bus (assuming some vehicle at 1Mpbs and 80% load). Not sure if anyone is actually making use of production 4-8Mbps systems yet. So I assume that rugged Ethernet for data haul and CAN for sensors would work as well as it is now for jets. They must be doing some serious data transfers I don’t understand.
baybal2 5y ago
1800C° or 1800K° I wonder. As far as I know, 1800C° turbine inlet temperature sounds completely unrealistic.
- trhway 5y ago
  > 1800C° turbine inlet temperature sounds completely unrealistic the current max is 1600C with cooled monocrystal blades. The 1800C seems to be a worthy goal post in this situation. More advanced cooling and/or say some tungsten composite for example. Even if they end up with "just" 1700C it would still be great. Wrt. 6th gen in general - it looks what everybody is doing is just targeting the goal posts just a bit behind the 5th (some are even basically skipping the 5th). That actually would give us the 5+th gen. The true 6th will have totally new capabilities plus of course all this advanced 5+th tech as a base. Currently it seems to me that autonomous/AI will be that new capability (on top of much improved engines, radar/sensors, stealth body). This will also as usually differentiate top players possessing the next gen capabilities from the rest wannabes.
- credit_guy 5y ago
  They say 3272 degrees Fahrenheit, which is 1800 degrees Celsius. This does appear to be achievable using the ceramic matrix composite (CMC) technology, more precisely the continuous fiber reinforced ceramic matrix composite [1]. [1] https://iopscience.iop.org/article/10.1088/1757-899X/678/1/012043/pdf https://iopscience.iop.org/article/10.1088/1757-899X/678/1/0...
- dogma1138 5y ago
  1800K is still 1.6Kc so that isn’t realistic for intake temperature either. At Mach3 the SR-71 airframe got to just under 500c at the hotspots. The reentry temperature of the space shuttle peaked at around 1600c. 1.6-1.7K is the temperature of modern afterburners so if 1800c/k is a figure of anything it would be that. That said the turbine entry temperature for modern jet engines is about 800c so maybe the 1 was a typo.
  - baybal2 5y ago
    These are very different things. An sacrificial ablative coating which survives 1800C° is different from a turbine spinning 25000RPM doing the same for thousands of hours.
CrazyPyroLinux 5y ago
Is it powered by the FX Chip? Smooth flying, Fox! https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Super_FX https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Super_FX
smbv 5y ago
Cleaned up URL https://interestingengineering.com/the-extraordinary-power-of-japans-sixth-gen-f-x-fighter-jet https://interestingengineering.com/the-extraordinary-power-o...
comprambler 5y ago
Missed a couple zeroes on the horsepower figure. Probably 28000hp
tibbydudeza 5y ago
Turkey and Azerbaijan has shown low cost effect of using drones on the battlefield instead of million dollar aircraft.
- scoopertrooper 5y ago
  Drones are great when up against an enemy without sophisticated air defense systems. Multimillion dollar aircrafts are great for contested environments.

58 points by mardiyah 5y ago

Often relevant: http://www.paulgraham.com/submarine.html http://www.paulgraham.com/submarine.html

According to the article, there is no accepted definition of "sixth generation". Pretty gutsy to embark on a multi billion project with a goal like this.

tyingq 5y ago
It reads like "anything being designed with (planned) capabilities that notably exceed the F-22, F-35, Su-57, and the J-20".
SkeuomorphicBee 5y ago
The "sixth generation" term is just a pop-sci (pop-engineering?) and marketing term thrown when referring to such project on the media, it is not a formal goal of the project. The goals of the project seem to be quite well defined, they selected a very specific set of advancements in aviation (composite airframe, electronic actuators, fly-by-fiber, etc), and warfare (electronic warfare, networking, microwave attack, etc). The article gives me the impression that it is a well managed pragmatic project based on some cutting edge concepts without going into "pie in the sky" territory.
- sorokod 5y ago
  What heuristic do you employ to decide what part of the article is marketing and what part indicates "a well managed project"?
scoopertrooper 5y ago
It's not like America, the EU, Russia, and China get together for a little meeting every few years to agree on a common specification for the next generation of fighter jets.
sekia 5y ago
Japan's government sometimes promote their project as an research/development for new generation product, I've never heared any of such projects established a new global standard, though: - According to JGSDF their latest Type 10 MBT[1] is world's first 4th gen tank, in spite of that its spec except software feature (like C4I capability) is virtually equivalent to modern 3rd gen tanks - Back in 80s MITI had invested over 50 billion yen into a parallel Prolog machine, labeled as a "5th gen computer"[2] [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Type_10 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Type_10 [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fifth_generation_computer https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fifth_generation_computer

nurgasemetey 5y ago

They could start with smaller and more feasible thinks like UAV instead of going to fighter jet.

Reason077 5y ago
Yeah, I'm kind of surprised that anyone is still expecting fighters to be a thing beyond the current "fifth generation". Won't UAVs, with varying degrees of autonomy, be able to outmanoeuvre and outperform a fighter that has the additional burden of having to carry a pilot and all the extra hardware associated with that?
- SiempreViernes 5y ago
  Close in dogfighting isn't a very big part of modern air combat, the real use for crazy manoeuvrers is avoiding missiles and those are already not burdened by keeping a human operator alive. There is some scope for a manoeuvrers competition between the larger fighter class UAVs and current gen missiles, but the purpose built and smaller machine will always win the agility fight eventually so it doesn't seem like a very fruitful contest to enter from the perspective of the fighter manufacturer.
- touisteur 5y ago
  I was going to lob a joke about Japan having already tried the drone thing in WW2 but I think the real advantage there is situational awareness. Drones might become extensions of the fighter jet, and probably the right 'next step' after all the amraam generation. I feel they're signaling that they're going for 'skin in the game'...
- JohnBooty 5y ago
  The advantages of UAVs are massive, numerous, and obvious. The only military advantages I can really think of manned fighters would be the increased situational awareness of a manned craft: the pilot has a panoramic view of their surroundings thanks to the fighter's canopy and being able to look around. Although, this seems like something drones could achieve relatively easily, providing a 360 degree view to their remote pilots. Manned craft also have the ability to function autonomously if communications are down due to jamming, I guess? Drones could proceed toward a preselected target even without comms, of course, but a based on my layman's understanding of air combat decision-making is a huge element of combat flight. Things are messy, confusing, and ever-evolving.

Invictus0 5y ago

I hope they are prepared to spend 5x their present budget.

SV_BubbleTime 5y ago

Other than EMI, and weight of wire, what could possibly be the reason for the fiber optic “fly by light” system? All of the user controls are way “slow” anyway. Something about that makes me think translation error or marketing. I can’t imagine the “drive by x” (“fly by x”) systems being so high bandwidth.

desine 5y ago
I think those are two very valid concerns when building a top of the line fighter jet. Especially if EM weapons become a more realistic threat, as each fly-by-wire wire is effectively an antenna. If you're shielding against EM weapons, the weight will quickly stack up more than just the signal wire.
- SV_BubbleTime 5y ago
  > If you're shielding against EM weapons, the weight will quickly stack up more than just the signal wire. Agreed. The signal wire while being large antenna for EMI isn’t a problem at all. Filters, rugged transceivers, chokes and your problem is solved there. EMP is a threat where you are able to load all traces on the PCB and in the chips themselves with varying potentials instantly. We’re used to securing transients on the signal lines. Not on the 10mm trace from chipA to chipB.
JohnBooty 5y ago
Other than EMI, and weight of wire, what could possibly be the reason for the fiber optic “fly by light” system? All of the user controls are way “slow” anyway. Those are some powerful upsides. What are the downsides, if any?
- SV_BubbleTime 5y ago
  Lots. Your modulator/demodulator went from being a simple transceiver chip to a whole laser module. Fiber optics handle cuts and “wire” damage poorly compared to copper. It isn’t as easy repair or maintain, even a simple continuity test now requires specialized equipment and you can’t probe but rather need to plug in at each point, ok but what if your issue is the connector? Fiber is always point A to point B, which doesn’t mean you can’t HUB or DaisyChain or STAR, but isn’t as easy as some copper systems like CAN, FLEX, and maybe others that can just splice together. Double any complexity because these systems are redundantly run. I’m not sure how big an issue is with EMI. Nor do I know the bandwidth. It’s just that the most complex vehicles today, they’re most well under 800kbps for the chassis bus (assuming some vehicle at 1Mpbs and 80% load). Not sure if anyone is actually making use of production 4-8Mbps systems yet. So I assume that rugged Ethernet for data haul and CAN for sensors would work as well as it is now for jets. They must be doing some serious data transfers I don’t understand.

baybal2 5y ago

1800C° or 1800K° I wonder. As far as I know, 1800C° turbine inlet temperature sounds completely unrealistic.

trhway 5y ago
> 1800C° turbine inlet temperature sounds completely unrealistic the current max is 1600C with cooled monocrystal blades. The 1800C seems to be a worthy goal post in this situation. More advanced cooling and/or say some tungsten composite for example. Even if they end up with "just" 1700C it would still be great. Wrt. 6th gen in general - it looks what everybody is doing is just targeting the goal posts just a bit behind the 5th (some are even basically skipping the 5th). That actually would give us the 5+th gen. The true 6th will have totally new capabilities plus of course all this advanced 5+th tech as a base. Currently it seems to me that autonomous/AI will be that new capability (on top of much improved engines, radar/sensors, stealth body). This will also as usually differentiate top players possessing the next gen capabilities from the rest wannabes.
credit_guy 5y ago
They say 3272 degrees Fahrenheit, which is 1800 degrees Celsius. This does appear to be achievable using the ceramic matrix composite (CMC) technology, more precisely the continuous fiber reinforced ceramic matrix composite [1]. [1] https://iopscience.iop.org/article/10.1088/1757-899X/678/1/012043/pdf https://iopscience.iop.org/article/10.1088/1757-899X/678/1/0...
dogma1138 5y ago
1800K is still 1.6Kc so that isn’t realistic for intake temperature either. At Mach3 the SR-71 airframe got to just under 500c at the hotspots. The reentry temperature of the space shuttle peaked at around 1600c. 1.6-1.7K is the temperature of modern afterburners so if 1800c/k is a figure of anything it would be that. That said the turbine entry temperature for modern jet engines is about 800c so maybe the 1 was a typo.
- baybal2 5y ago
  These are very different things. An sacrificial ablative coating which survives 1800C° is different from a turbine spinning 25000RPM doing the same for thousands of hours.

CrazyPyroLinux 5y ago

Is it powered by the FX Chip? Smooth flying, Fox! https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Super_FX https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Super_FX

smbv 5y ago

Cleaned up URL https://interestingengineering.com/the-extraordinary-power-of-japans-sixth-gen-f-x-fighter-jet https://interestingengineering.com/the-extraordinary-power-o...

comprambler 5y ago

Missed a couple zeroes on the horsepower figure. Probably 28000hp

tibbydudeza 5y ago

Turkey and Azerbaijan has shown low cost effect of using drones on the battlefield instead of million dollar aircraft.

scoopertrooper 5y ago
Drones are great when up against an enemy without sophisticated air defense systems. Multimillion dollar aircrafts are great for contested environments.