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There is a risk of creating variants by mass vaccination. If everyone has a uniform defense generated by a vaccine, this creates selection pressures for a varia

by benf76 5y ago

There is a risk of creating variants by mass vaccination. If everyone has a uniform defense generated by a vaccine, this creates selection pressures for a variant that is able to maneuver around the vaccine induced immunity.

IAmEveryone 5y ago
There are reasons to believe, and some experience to point to, that this effect doesn’t work with vaccines as much as it does with antibiotics. It’s a long story, but part of the reason is that bacteria evolve resistance in the presence of the antibiotic, while here, the virus would need to randomly evolve it in the unvaccinated, then sustain useless adaption for a while until it gets the opportunity to infect a vaccinated person.
- maxerickson 5y ago
  Vaccinated people are already regularly getting infected, so it isn't quite that simple. With Covid, many of the vaccines target a highly functional portion of the virus for the induced immunity. This means that mutations that make the vaccine induced antibodies less effective are at least somewhat likely to alter the function of the virus. My understanding is that we aren't really able to analytically determine the possibility space.
- leereeves 5y ago
  > the virus would need to randomly evolve [resistance] in the unvaccinated That's only true if the vaccine stops almost all infections, which the COVID vaccines do not. There's another comment in this thread from someone who's been vaccinated and sick for 9 days. That's a great environment for the virus to evolve immunity to the vaccine. And it's not an uncommon situation.
  - gambiting 5y ago
    >>That's a great environment for the virus to evolve immunity to the vaccine Again, like the person above you said, it's not that simple. Bacteria can develop resistance to antibiotics because they can either avoid or start to digest the chemical that would normally be harmful to them. Here it's not the vaccine that's killing the virus - it's your own immune system, and every single one is different. So yeah, maybe in this person's body the immune system didn't learn to recognize the virus and kill it - it means literally nothing for how another person's immune system will behave when they encounter it.
    - leereeves 5y ago
      > it means literally nothing for how another person's immune system will behave when they encounter it. Vaccinations teach everyone's immune system to target the same part of the virus. Since everyone has immunity to the same spike protein, a change in that protein means something to all vaccinated people.
bobthechef 5y ago
Yes, I have read this also. Big pharma also has an interest in promoting booster shots. It would be a steady flow of revenue. If it causes selective pressures that create new variants, that just means a perpetual market for booster shots.
- gambiting 5y ago
  >>If it causes selective pressures that create new variants Except that it literally doesn't, there is no data to suggest that it would, and I have no idea why this particular idea is repeated so much. Like I said in the comment above, none of the vaccines that we use have ever caused super variants to emerge. Zero. We don't have a super variant of Polio, or any other diseases that people get vaccinated against.
  - karol 5y ago
    Polio is not a coronavirus. SARS has different mutation rate, so this needs to taken into account. Additionally cats, dogs and other animals can be infected and produce unique mutations, unlike polio.
jeromegv 5y ago
All the worst variants right now have developed in unvaccinated population. So either you sacrifice 1-2% of the population and let variants continue while not vaccinating anyone. Or you get vaccinated and reduce your risks of going to the hospital by a ratio of 30:1.
- jrs235 5y ago
  Curious, how did/does one conclude or determine that the worst variants developed in unvaccinated populations?
gambiting 5y ago
Absolute nonsense though, as proven by looking at literally any of the diseases we have been vaccinating people for decades. Polio vaccine hasn't caused super polio to emerge, just like vaccines haven't caused super variants of hepatitis B, tetanus or whooping cough - all things that children are vaccinated against. Even the flu vaccine doesn't cause new variants, and that has a spotty coverage at best. Like, what you said sounds scienc-y enough that a lot of people seem to believe it, but it's literally not true and has never been true.
- elvatoloco55 5y ago
  Its not nonsense. Its possible and it has happened but in this case unlikely. Though there is still concern due to the focus of these vaccines on the spike protein
- peytn 5y ago
  > it's literally not true and has never been true. It’s widely regarded to be true for Marek’s disease.
- benf76 5y ago
  You are comparing apples and oranges. It is this reason there has never been a successful corona virus vaccine despite decades and billions of dollars of research. Look up “leaky vaccines”

by benf76 5y ago

IAmEveryone 5y ago

There are reasons to believe, and some experience to point to, that this effect doesn’t work with vaccines as much as it does with antibiotics. It’s a long story, but part of the reason is that bacteria evolve resistance in the presence of the antibiotic, while here, the virus would need to randomly evolve it in the unvaccinated, then sustain useless adaption for a while until it gets the opportunity to infect a vaccinated person.

maxerickson 5y ago
Vaccinated people are already regularly getting infected, so it isn't quite that simple. With Covid, many of the vaccines target a highly functional portion of the virus for the induced immunity. This means that mutations that make the vaccine induced antibodies less effective are at least somewhat likely to alter the function of the virus. My understanding is that we aren't really able to analytically determine the possibility space.
leereeves 5y ago
> the virus would need to randomly evolve [resistance] in the unvaccinated That's only true if the vaccine stops almost all infections, which the COVID vaccines do not. There's another comment in this thread from someone who's been vaccinated and sick for 9 days. That's a great environment for the virus to evolve immunity to the vaccine. And it's not an uncommon situation.
- gambiting 5y ago
  >>That's a great environment for the virus to evolve immunity to the vaccine Again, like the person above you said, it's not that simple. Bacteria can develop resistance to antibiotics because they can either avoid or start to digest the chemical that would normally be harmful to them. Here it's not the vaccine that's killing the virus - it's your own immune system, and every single one is different. So yeah, maybe in this person's body the immune system didn't learn to recognize the virus and kill it - it means literally nothing for how another person's immune system will behave when they encounter it.
  - leereeves 5y ago
    > it means literally nothing for how another person's immune system will behave when they encounter it. Vaccinations teach everyone's immune system to target the same part of the virus. Since everyone has immunity to the same spike protein, a change in that protein means something to all vaccinated people.

bobthechef 5y ago

Yes, I have read this also. Big pharma also has an interest in promoting booster shots. It would be a steady flow of revenue. If it causes selective pressures that create new variants, that just means a perpetual market for booster shots.

gambiting 5y ago
>>If it causes selective pressures that create new variants Except that it literally doesn't, there is no data to suggest that it would, and I have no idea why this particular idea is repeated so much. Like I said in the comment above, none of the vaccines that we use have ever caused super variants to emerge. Zero. We don't have a super variant of Polio, or any other diseases that people get vaccinated against.
- karol 5y ago
  Polio is not a coronavirus. SARS has different mutation rate, so this needs to taken into account. Additionally cats, dogs and other animals can be infected and produce unique mutations, unlike polio.

jeromegv 5y ago

All the worst variants right now have developed in unvaccinated population. So either you sacrifice 1-2% of the population and let variants continue while not vaccinating anyone. Or you get vaccinated and reduce your risks of going to the hospital by a ratio of 30:1.

jrs235 5y ago
Curious, how did/does one conclude or determine that the worst variants developed in unvaccinated populations?

gambiting 5y ago

Absolute nonsense though, as proven by looking at literally any of the diseases we have been vaccinating people for decades. Polio vaccine hasn't caused super polio to emerge, just like vaccines haven't caused super variants of hepatitis B, tetanus or whooping cough - all things that children are vaccinated against. Even the flu vaccine doesn't cause new variants, and that has a spotty coverage at best. Like, what you said sounds scienc-y enough that a lot of people seem to believe it, but it's literally not true and has never been true.

elvatoloco55 5y ago
Its not nonsense. Its possible and it has happened but in this case unlikely. Though there is still concern due to the focus of these vaccines on the spike protein
peytn 5y ago
> it's literally not true and has never been true. It’s widely regarded to be true for Marek’s disease.
benf76 5y ago
You are comparing apples and oranges. It is this reason there has never been a successful corona virus vaccine despite decades and billions of dollars of research. Look up “leaky vaccines”