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I volunteer for a "Tafel" in the center of Munich for about four months now, and here the main issue is related to immigrants. I can state with confidence that

I volunteer for a "Tafel" in the center of Munich for about four months now, and here the main issue is related to immigrants. I can state with confidence that about 19 out of 20 people coming there have an arab background, and the vast majority have more than 7, sometimes even 10, people in total in their household. And you can see from the cards they need to show, that most of them are children. Many of the migrant kids I've met can't speak any German. Even kids that are already 10 years old. Thus I believe this situation will escalate even further in the future, as it will be very hard for these kids to get a proper education without the needed language skills. It makes you feel really bad to see them growing up in such an environment without much chance for a better life. But ultimately this is due to their parents decision to have so many kids, even if they can't afford simple food.

the-dude 5y ago
What is a mod ?
- watrami 5y ago
  Fixed the typo.
newsclues 5y ago
In Canada similar situation is playing out. Lack of assimilation and heavy reliance on the social safety net, is leading to animosity.
- southerntofu 5y ago
  Why would "assimilation" be a goal? Of course giving children opportunity to learn (including the local language) is good, but pretending a single culture and way of life needs to be shared among everyone is an imperialist construct. Not everyone born to a land shares the same culture. There are huge cultural shifts between faiths and political sides, for example, and it's not a problem. A society that is not multicultural has a settler's mentality which is profoundly racist. For example here in France, at the same time the colonial process aimed to destroy local cultures in the colonies in Algeria/Indochine/etc, public schools were used as a weapon to destroy the local cultures and languages in Bretagne, Alsace, Occitanie, etc... A few generations of beating children who spoke their native tongue, suggesting that french was a somehow superior language (and assimulation was a requirement), was enough to annihilate most local cultures. EDIT: I also don't understand why "reliance on safety net" would be a bad thing. There's a reason such mechanisms are in place, and one's contribution to society can hardly be measured in purely economic terms.
  - newsclues 5y ago
    It’s the two factors, failure to assimilate and heavy use of social safety net. It’s the combination of failing to respect the local culture and refusing to contribute and extract benefits without giving back. You wouldn’t like if I moved into your house, didn’t respect your way of life and just ate your food.
    - southerntofu 5y ago
      > failing to respect the local culture Assimilation and respect are not the same. If anything, there's strong incentives for immigrants to respect the local culture and to assimilate. I dare bet there's more respect for the flag and symbols of a nation from immigrants than from natives themselves, in proportion. I've often found myself in situations where immigrants despite facing very rude situations were telling me all the great things about France, and praising Napoléon's conquests. And it's required of them as part of the legally-mandated racist assimilation process (in France at least). Many french people i know spit on the national flag and despise Napoléon for being a bloody tyrant and colonizer. > extract benefits without giving back Source? Even if you do have stats, they would be skewed by the fact illegals are often unaccounted, and that most immigrants (students, asylum seekers) are not allowed by law to work and declare income. Also, measuring in purely economical terms fails to account for participation in society outside of work: school trips, local associations, arts, militant activities... > You wouldn’t like if I moved into your house, didn’t respect your way of life and just ate your food. Of course not, but my house is my house and i don't appreciate anyone dictating me how it should be run, not even the State. Outside of my house, there's an abundance of food and housing and other resources. Who am i to dictate how other people should live? Who gets to decide what's "respect" or not? There's not a single way of life that's fairer than others, and even within a same ethnic group / region you'll find plenty of different ways of life and cultures.
raverbashing 5y ago
It should be illegal for kids to not be in school, but since it involves a "migrant background" (or some other factor) that makes it ok? Seems like lack of enforcement by some authorities. Sure not all of them are going into a Tafel, still...
- _Microft 5y ago
  There is compulsory education in Germany, even for foreign children. I have not heard of any exemption to that.
- southerntofu 5y ago
  I'm not sure mandatory indoctrination is a healthy sign for society. Study-at-home was rather strong in France historically, due to public schools being so reactionary and authoritarian (or on the other side of the political spectrum, due to teaching sexual education and evolution), and there was an entire public institution (CNED) dedicated to that. However in the past decades, the government's attack on home schooling has coincided with the introduction of more and more nationalist/racist doctrine in public schools. Don't get me wrong, i'm strongly in favor of public education, as long as it's in the interest of the children (for example Montessori methods) but public schools in much of the world are the exact opposite of that.
NonContro 5y ago
The problem will multiply. If people are incapable of integrating into one of the richest, most well-run, and liberal countries on the planet, then entire family groups should be sent back, with a once-off €50,000 as motivation (still representing a substantial saving in lifetime welfare costs for society). It doesn't make sense to be taking care of refugees in Germany when they could take care of themselves for a fraction of the price in their regional homeland. As long as these groups have food, they will continue to multiply, until the generous capacity of the host population is extinguished. Its classic R vs K reproduction strategy: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/R/K_selection_theory https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/R/K_selection_theory
- masklinn 5y ago
  > The problem will multiply. If people are incapable of integrating It's not and never been that people were incapable of integrating. Usually it's that they're refused the opportunity by being recognisably other and easy to discriminate against in various more or less overt ways. I've a bunch of french journal clippings about first diaspora italians, they read exactly like your ilk. But once they speak french it’s pretty hard to differentiate an italian from a southern french or corsican.
  - DrNosferatu 5y ago
    "Incapable of integrating"??? The biggest constant here is the attitude to Difference in German Society. A fellow engineer, of Arabic (Tunisian) origin but raised in Germany, told me that when she was little girl, she was a very good student - including in German language - and on the occasion of her test being the best of her class, an angry colleague said: "they shouldn't have given you a better grade: you're not German!". Having lived in Germany for 8 years, I got stories like this from immigrants raised in Germany, all the time. At some point I started to consciously choose my words to make sure there wasn't any bias when I heard the telling of this kind of story when I asked something of the sort: "how was it to grow up in Germany?".
    - DrNosferatu 5y ago
DrNosferatu 5y ago
So if people are so poor that they cannot feed their family, it's - at least generally - their own fault? Specially in a notoriously wealthy place like Munich? And you, Watrami, volunteer for a food bank there to help people that hurt themselves through their own misguidedness - is that it?
- candiodari 5y ago
  You thought social services didn't have it's share of racists ? They see never ending misery (because if the misery stops they stop seeing the people), and they must have an explanation. Obviously they have the same demands for an explanation as society at large: they themselves are perfect (for example, these kids go to school, so they can be taught German, it just doesn't happen), so the explanation must be something else. It can't be them, themselves. It can't be the support structure. It can't be society around them (even though one just exposed himself as somewhat of a racist). So who is left? Homeowners, banks, that sort of thing if they're generous. The immigrants and their backwards ways must just cause it themselves! (and I might agree: in some cases that's true. Generally it's not) It's like youth services. They generally blame what happens to kids ... on the kids. And if not on the kids, then on the parents. The most generous will blame the most useless blame of all "society". Never themselves. Despite research pointing out that the many "missed" kids (who stay with abusive parents) have a far better life than foster kids. In other words: even when you can prove that it is the social workers themselves CAUSING misery, they will still blame anyone else. And in Germany, like in many other places, give a try to finding an Arabic-language German course book for cheap, through social services. Go ahead, give that a try. That doing so is so very hard, of course, has nothing to do with immigrants failing to learn.
southerntofu 5y ago
> It makes you feel really bad to see them growing up in such an environment without much chance for a better life. But ultimately this is due to their parents decision to have so many kids, even if they can't afford simple food. Is it ultimately the fault of the parents, though? It's easy to place to blame on individual parents, but more interesting to study the misses/wrongdoings of the educational system. Schools tend to cast immigrants children on the side very early on, and not even try to teach them anything (their future as low-wage workers for the industry has already been decided), at least it is so here in France and your suggestion that 10 years old children can't speak properly the language used by everyone around them seems to indicate the situation is the same in Germany. If anything, it's a sign of deep social disintegration on a broader scale, probably due to a mix of institutional racism/classism and public policies aiming to dismantle public services.
TMWNN 5y ago
>Many of the migrant kids I've met can't speak any German. Even kids that are already 10 years old. Meanwhile, Sweden has no language, income, employment, or skills requirement (<http://www.migrationsverket.se/English/Private-individuals/Becoming-a-Swedish-citizen/Citizenship-for-adults/Time-in-Sweden.html http://www.migrationsverket.se/English/Private-individuals/B...>) for obtaining citizenship. >Thus I believe this situation will escalate even further in the future, as it will be very hard for these kids to get a proper education without the needed language skills. In completely unrelated news, Arabic is now the second most spoken language in Sweden (<https://digitaledition.chicagotribune.com/tribune/article_popover.aspx?guid=7047637a-c5f5-4297-9afa-a273dd443a9a https://digitaledition.chicagotribune.com/tribune/article_po...>).

the-dude 5y ago

What is a mod ?

watrami 5y ago
Fixed the typo.

newsclues 5y ago

In Canada similar situation is playing out. Lack of assimilation and heavy reliance on the social safety net, is leading to animosity.

southerntofu 5y ago
Why would "assimilation" be a goal? Of course giving children opportunity to learn (including the local language) is good, but pretending a single culture and way of life needs to be shared among everyone is an imperialist construct. Not everyone born to a land shares the same culture. There are huge cultural shifts between faiths and political sides, for example, and it's not a problem. A society that is not multicultural has a settler's mentality which is profoundly racist. For example here in France, at the same time the colonial process aimed to destroy local cultures in the colonies in Algeria/Indochine/etc, public schools were used as a weapon to destroy the local cultures and languages in Bretagne, Alsace, Occitanie, etc... A few generations of beating children who spoke their native tongue, suggesting that french was a somehow superior language (and assimulation was a requirement), was enough to annihilate most local cultures. EDIT: I also don't understand why "reliance on safety net" would be a bad thing. There's a reason such mechanisms are in place, and one's contribution to society can hardly be measured in purely economic terms.
- newsclues 5y ago
  It’s the two factors, failure to assimilate and heavy use of social safety net. It’s the combination of failing to respect the local culture and refusing to contribute and extract benefits without giving back. You wouldn’t like if I moved into your house, didn’t respect your way of life and just ate your food.
  - southerntofu 5y ago
    > failing to respect the local culture Assimilation and respect are not the same. If anything, there's strong incentives for immigrants to respect the local culture and to assimilate. I dare bet there's more respect for the flag and symbols of a nation from immigrants than from natives themselves, in proportion. I've often found myself in situations where immigrants despite facing very rude situations were telling me all the great things about France, and praising Napoléon's conquests. And it's required of them as part of the legally-mandated racist assimilation process (in France at least). Many french people i know spit on the national flag and despise Napoléon for being a bloody tyrant and colonizer. > extract benefits without giving back Source? Even if you do have stats, they would be skewed by the fact illegals are often unaccounted, and that most immigrants (students, asylum seekers) are not allowed by law to work and declare income. Also, measuring in purely economical terms fails to account for participation in society outside of work: school trips, local associations, arts, militant activities... > You wouldn’t like if I moved into your house, didn’t respect your way of life and just ate your food. Of course not, but my house is my house and i don't appreciate anyone dictating me how it should be run, not even the State. Outside of my house, there's an abundance of food and housing and other resources. Who am i to dictate how other people should live? Who gets to decide what's "respect" or not? There's not a single way of life that's fairer than others, and even within a same ethnic group / region you'll find plenty of different ways of life and cultures.

raverbashing 5y ago

It should be illegal for kids to not be in school, but since it involves a "migrant background" (or some other factor) that makes it ok? Seems like lack of enforcement by some authorities. Sure not all of them are going into a Tafel, still...

_Microft 5y ago
There is compulsory education in Germany, even for foreign children. I have not heard of any exemption to that.
southerntofu 5y ago
I'm not sure mandatory indoctrination is a healthy sign for society. Study-at-home was rather strong in France historically, due to public schools being so reactionary and authoritarian (or on the other side of the political spectrum, due to teaching sexual education and evolution), and there was an entire public institution (CNED) dedicated to that. However in the past decades, the government's attack on home schooling has coincided with the introduction of more and more nationalist/racist doctrine in public schools. Don't get me wrong, i'm strongly in favor of public education, as long as it's in the interest of the children (for example Montessori methods) but public schools in much of the world are the exact opposite of that.

NonContro 5y ago

The problem will multiply. If people are incapable of integrating into one of the richest, most well-run, and liberal countries on the planet, then entire family groups should be sent back, with a once-off €50,000 as motivation (still representing a substantial saving in lifetime welfare costs for society). It doesn't make sense to be taking care of refugees in Germany when they could take care of themselves for a fraction of the price in their regional homeland. As long as these groups have food, they will continue to multiply, until the generous capacity of the host population is extinguished. Its classic R vs K reproduction strategy: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/R/K_selection_theory https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/R/K_selection_theory

masklinn 5y ago
> The problem will multiply. If people are incapable of integrating It's not and never been that people were incapable of integrating. Usually it's that they're refused the opportunity by being recognisably other and easy to discriminate against in various more or less overt ways. I've a bunch of french journal clippings about first diaspora italians, they read exactly like your ilk. But once they speak french it’s pretty hard to differentiate an italian from a southern french or corsican.
- DrNosferatu 5y ago
  "Incapable of integrating"??? The biggest constant here is the attitude to Difference in German Society. A fellow engineer, of Arabic (Tunisian) origin but raised in Germany, told me that when she was little girl, she was a very good student - including in German language - and on the occasion of her test being the best of her class, an angry colleague said: "they shouldn't have given you a better grade: you're not German!". Having lived in Germany for 8 years, I got stories like this from immigrants raised in Germany, all the time. At some point I started to consciously choose my words to make sure there wasn't any bias when I heard the telling of this kind of story when I asked something of the sort: "how was it to grow up in Germany?".
  - DrNosferatu 5y ago

DrNosferatu 5y ago

So if people are so poor that they cannot feed their family, it's - at least generally - their own fault? Specially in a notoriously wealthy place like Munich? And you, Watrami, volunteer for a food bank there to help people that hurt themselves through their own misguidedness - is that it?

candiodari 5y ago
You thought social services didn't have it's share of racists ? They see never ending misery (because if the misery stops they stop seeing the people), and they must have an explanation. Obviously they have the same demands for an explanation as society at large: they themselves are perfect (for example, these kids go to school, so they can be taught German, it just doesn't happen), so the explanation must be something else. It can't be them, themselves. It can't be the support structure. It can't be society around them (even though one just exposed himself as somewhat of a racist). So who is left? Homeowners, banks, that sort of thing if they're generous. The immigrants and their backwards ways must just cause it themselves! (and I might agree: in some cases that's true. Generally it's not) It's like youth services. They generally blame what happens to kids ... on the kids. And if not on the kids, then on the parents. The most generous will blame the most useless blame of all "society". Never themselves. Despite research pointing out that the many "missed" kids (who stay with abusive parents) have a far better life than foster kids. In other words: even when you can prove that it is the social workers themselves CAUSING misery, they will still blame anyone else. And in Germany, like in many other places, give a try to finding an Arabic-language German course book for cheap, through social services. Go ahead, give that a try. That doing so is so very hard, of course, has nothing to do with immigrants failing to learn.

southerntofu 5y ago

> It makes you feel really bad to see them growing up in such an environment without much chance for a better life. But ultimately this is due to their parents decision to have so many kids, even if they can't afford simple food. Is it ultimately the fault of the parents, though? It's easy to place to blame on individual parents, but more interesting to study the misses/wrongdoings of the educational system. Schools tend to cast immigrants children on the side very early on, and not even try to teach them anything (their future as low-wage workers for the industry has already been decided), at least it is so here in France and your suggestion that 10 years old children can't speak properly the language used by everyone around them seems to indicate the situation is the same in Germany. If anything, it's a sign of deep social disintegration on a broader scale, probably due to a mix of institutional racism/classism and public policies aiming to dismantle public services.

TMWNN 5y ago

>Many of the migrant kids I've met can't speak any German. Even kids that are already 10 years old. Meanwhile, Sweden has no language, income, employment, or skills requirement (<http://www.migrationsverket.se/English/Private-individuals/Becoming-a-Swedish-citizen/Citizenship-for-adults/Time-in-Sweden.html http://www.migrationsverket.se/English/Private-individuals/B...>) for obtaining citizenship. >Thus I believe this situation will escalate even further in the future, as it will be very hard for these kids to get a proper education without the needed language skills. In completely unrelated news, Arabic is now the second most spoken language in Sweden (<https://digitaledition.chicagotribune.com/tribune/article_popover.aspx?guid=7047637a-c5f5-4297-9afa-a273dd443a9a https://digitaledition.chicagotribune.com/tribune/article_po...>).