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The workplace described in the article absolutely sounds like a hostile environment. The asker’s bosses are using “family” as an excuse to justify working longe

The workplace described in the article absolutely sounds like a hostile environment. The asker’s bosses are using “family” as an excuse to justify working longer hours. Families don’t do that. That said: Personally, I do want my coworkers and I to be something akin to a family. If I’m going to spend around a third of my life working, I want to do it with a group of people I like and care about.

AussieWog93 5y ago
>I want to do it with a group of people I like and care about. So not like my family then?
- arkitaip 5y ago
  This touches on something very difficult when it comes to families: if you are lucky you end up with one that gives you a happy childhood. If you're super lucky that same family turn out to be the most supportive and fun people in you adult life. Most people simply aren't that super lucky, mostly because it actually requires lots and lots of conscience work across generations.
  - mensetmanusman 5y ago
    Yes, absolutely it is a cultural thing. Those with supporting families are very fortunate.
  - blitzar 5y ago
    Your comment made me think how alike a 'normal' family and a 'normal' workplace really are. Siblings (departments) compete for love (attention) from the parents (senior management). Hold a grude that they were not the favourite child (employee) and they had to make it all on their own unlike their little sister (new employee / product / competing department) who had it easy and had all the support (resources / marketplace) and help from their parents (management). One christmas (bonus round) my brother (colleague) got the toy (a big bonus) he really wanted, and I just got a skateboard (a bonus that is the same size but I am certain is less than the other guy got). My parents (boss) obvioulsy doesnt love me (value my contribution) as much as them.
    - deleted 5y ago
      [deleted]
elric 5y ago
> If I’m going to spend around a third of my life working, I want to do it with a group of people I like and care about. I strongly agree with this sentiment. Above a certain wage-threshold, this is much more important to me than additional remuneration. I do some of my best work when I'm working with a good team with a high degree of trust, which is much easier to come by when I like the people on the team. The current state of semi-permanent WFH has had a negative impact on this.
- ungamedplayer 5y ago
  I think the WFH has had a positive impact on this, less meetings more actual discussions.
  - Wowfunhappy 5y ago
    Huh, it's been exactly the opposite for me. Whereas before I could glance around the office, see who didn't have headphones on, and initiate a quick discussion when appropriate, I now need to actually schedule a Zoom meeting on the calendar. (This isn't a blanket argument against work from home—people have different prioritizes.)
masklinn 5y ago
> Families don’t do that. Families absolutely do that, and this was and is normalised in various contexts e.g. farm families, or older (and now fundie) families where the oldest are tasked with caring for the youngest. Lots of families are absolute shit, in a way which exactly matches the article: > Recently, however, a friend in my department was told she would not receive a promotion because she is not a “team player.” When pressed, HR and her supervisor mentioned her absence from department-bonding activities. Not being there for a family reunion / holiday / birthday leading to long-term grudges with emotional and financial consequences? Yep. It doesn't take much (or many) for family politics to be worse than office politics, with devastating consequences to some.
- Wowfunhappy 5y ago
  In hindsight, I wish I'd written "good families don't do that," but I meant it in the same sense as "families love each other" or "families look out for one another." Of course, there are many families that hate each other's guts, but when someone says their team is "like a family," they're not talking about those types of families.
thaumasiotes 5y ago
> The asker’s bosses are using “family” as an excuse to justify working longer hours. Families don’t do that. ...are you sure?
MrGilbert 5y ago
I'm currently in a situation where I consider quitting after almost 8 years working with really good people. But the company itself has some structural problems that we, as a small team, cannot change (as in "upper management doesn't see the problem"). And I have enough of this. As I don't have many people around me outside work, I feel hesitant to "leave my family behind".
- adwww 5y ago
  I've just left a similar workplace and while I feel my reasons for leaving were right, I do slightly regret my decision. It's frustrating that too often management don't see the problems everyone else sees, and would rather waste $£ on recruitment than retention.
  - KSteffensen 5y ago
    As a mid-level manager I do wish people would inform my of any problems before they sign with some other workplace instead of after. I can't fix issues I don't hear about
    - cmmeur01 5y ago
      Most of the time these things fall on deaf ears, are met with empty promises, or middle management isn’t in a position to change what needs to be changed. I left both of my last jobs for these reasons. It became a waste of time to go voice these concerns when my time would be better spent looking for a new job.
    - skeeter2020 5y ago
      Another manager here; you also can't fix most issues you do hear about. You can sometimes prevent the problem from forming in the first place, but it's not on "people to inform you" of them. Your entire job is trying to catch the few issues you can address early and doing your best to shield your team from the rest of them.
      - 5y ago
ThePadawan 5y ago
> That said: Personally, I do want my coworkers and I to be something akin to a family. If I’m going to spend around a third of my life working, I want to do it with a group of people I like and care about. I find that admirable, but having gone through a number of different workplaces in the last 6 years, also very naive. Out of the hundreds of colleagues I had, I would voluntarily choose to talk to maybe 3 of them. I don't think I find 97% of people I encounter in general disagreeable, in my experience Software Engineering just has loads and loads of "that guy"s. You know, the ones you try to avoid at parties. Except that's most of them, so you don't show up to the parties in the first place.
- christophilus 5y ago
  It’s not naive. I’ve found a place where I genuinely like and care for my coworkers. From personal experience, it is definitely worth the effort of looking for such a job.
  - ThePadawan 5y ago
    Thank you so much. I have been on the job hunt since May 2020 and have only come up against obstacles so far. It has really cheered me up to hear those words!
    - prox 5y ago
      I too found such a company. They are a bit rarer. Lots of companies just don’t know how to manage people. You think with the thousands of management trainings that it would be so, but alas. A good company makes you happy, isn’t a perpetual stress fest and makes good money as well.
  - forty 5y ago
    It's probably related to the fact that parent "has gone through a number of different workplaces in the last 6 years". I have been working at the same place for the last 9 years, it's much easier to build a "family" that way. Also the company was tiny when I joined, which helped. Of course it does come with some downsides, like the fact that it's tougher when someone leaves. That's life I guess :)
Closi 5y ago
Judging from other comments this will be an unpopular opinion, but the work environment doesn't seem hostile to me. Their biggest issue seems to be that they, and their co-worker, didn't get promotions: > I am currently far exceeding my “assistant” job description and am also seeking a title/compensation change to reflect the project manager role I’m now performing. > a friend in my department was told she would not receive a promotion because she is not a “team player.” When pressed, HR and her supervisor mentioned her absence from department-bonding activities. However i'm not sure that they are indicating the right behaviours for a promotion in their message. 1) They seem to think they should get a promotion without taking part in 'department-bonding activities', however taking part in these 'department-bonding activities' is ultimately part of being a manager in lots of companies (where your job becomes more about setting culture, building relationships and demonstrating the right behaviours). 2) They want a promotion, but are "resolutely firm on never working lunches or doing things outside of work hours". IMO Project Managers in lots of companies can't always have as firm boundaries about work and life as an assistant can, and there is an expectation that if things need to be done, they will stay late and work lunches to get stuff done when it needs to be done. That comes with the pay-packet unfortunately. 3) They think they should get a promotion, but describe the fact that they are seen frantically trying to get everything done in their current role, and tell people there is not enough time to join in on the company team-building activities which they appear to roll their eyes at - however the actual behaviour people should put on if they want to become promoted is to be like a 'swan' - i.e. rather than being seen to be busy and barely keeping up with your work, you are seen as gliding through your workload calmly while kicking vigorously under the water level, and still attending the social events despite having lots of work on because you are able to balance everything. So it sounds like "I want to get a promotion, however I don't want to do the part of the role that involves taking part in relationship-building activities (other than sending a few instant messages), and won't accept being flexible with my hours or even having a working lunch if we are in the shit".
- rizzaxc 5y ago
  yeah i dont get this woman. she wanna move higher up the ladder, but refusing to do "extra work" and excercising her presence in the company. how does she think she would function with the extra responsibilities?
cbozeman 5y ago
Reading bullshit like this article makes me realize why Joshua Fluke's YouTube channel is so popular. The jig is up. People aren't fooled any longer by corporate bullshit, and it's none too soon in my opinion.
mindvirus 5y ago
Maybe "like friends" is a better goal? People who will go out of their way for you and want you to succeed, but where there's still shared expectations of how you behave and interact.

AussieWog93 5y ago

>I want to do it with a group of people I like and care about. So not like my family then?

arkitaip 5y ago
This touches on something very difficult when it comes to families: if you are lucky you end up with one that gives you a happy childhood. If you're super lucky that same family turn out to be the most supportive and fun people in you adult life. Most people simply aren't that super lucky, mostly because it actually requires lots and lots of conscience work across generations.
- mensetmanusman 5y ago
  Yes, absolutely it is a cultural thing. Those with supporting families are very fortunate.
- blitzar 5y ago
  Your comment made me think how alike a 'normal' family and a 'normal' workplace really are. Siblings (departments) compete for love (attention) from the parents (senior management). Hold a grude that they were not the favourite child (employee) and they had to make it all on their own unlike their little sister (new employee / product / competing department) who had it easy and had all the support (resources / marketplace) and help from their parents (management). One christmas (bonus round) my brother (colleague) got the toy (a big bonus) he really wanted, and I just got a skateboard (a bonus that is the same size but I am certain is less than the other guy got). My parents (boss) obvioulsy doesnt love me (value my contribution) as much as them.
  - deleted 5y ago
    [deleted]

elric 5y ago

> If I’m going to spend around a third of my life working, I want to do it with a group of people I like and care about. I strongly agree with this sentiment. Above a certain wage-threshold, this is much more important to me than additional remuneration. I do some of my best work when I'm working with a good team with a high degree of trust, which is much easier to come by when I like the people on the team. The current state of semi-permanent WFH has had a negative impact on this.

ungamedplayer 5y ago
I think the WFH has had a positive impact on this, less meetings more actual discussions.
- Wowfunhappy 5y ago
  Huh, it's been exactly the opposite for me. Whereas before I could glance around the office, see who didn't have headphones on, and initiate a quick discussion when appropriate, I now need to actually schedule a Zoom meeting on the calendar. (This isn't a blanket argument against work from home—people have different prioritizes.)

masklinn 5y ago

> Families don’t do that. Families absolutely do that, and this was and is normalised in various contexts e.g. farm families, or older (and now fundie) families where the oldest are tasked with caring for the youngest. Lots of families are absolute shit, in a way which exactly matches the article: > Recently, however, a friend in my department was told she would not receive a promotion because she is not a “team player.” When pressed, HR and her supervisor mentioned her absence from department-bonding activities. Not being there for a family reunion / holiday / birthday leading to long-term grudges with emotional and financial consequences? Yep. It doesn't take much (or many) for family politics to be worse than office politics, with devastating consequences to some.

Wowfunhappy 5y ago
In hindsight, I wish I'd written "good families don't do that," but I meant it in the same sense as "families love each other" or "families look out for one another." Of course, there are many families that hate each other's guts, but when someone says their team is "like a family," they're not talking about those types of families.

thaumasiotes 5y ago

> The asker’s bosses are using “family” as an excuse to justify working longer hours. Families don’t do that. ...are you sure?

MrGilbert 5y ago

I'm currently in a situation where I consider quitting after almost 8 years working with really good people. But the company itself has some structural problems that we, as a small team, cannot change (as in "upper management doesn't see the problem"). And I have enough of this. As I don't have many people around me outside work, I feel hesitant to "leave my family behind".

adwww 5y ago
I've just left a similar workplace and while I feel my reasons for leaving were right, I do slightly regret my decision. It's frustrating that too often management don't see the problems everyone else sees, and would rather waste $£ on recruitment than retention.
- KSteffensen 5y ago
  As a mid-level manager I do wish people would inform my of any problems before they sign with some other workplace instead of after. I can't fix issues I don't hear about
  - cmmeur01 5y ago
    Most of the time these things fall on deaf ears, are met with empty promises, or middle management isn’t in a position to change what needs to be changed. I left both of my last jobs for these reasons. It became a waste of time to go voice these concerns when my time would be better spent looking for a new job.
  - skeeter2020 5y ago
    Another manager here; you also can't fix most issues you do hear about. You can sometimes prevent the problem from forming in the first place, but it's not on "people to inform you" of them. Your entire job is trying to catch the few issues you can address early and doing your best to shield your team from the rest of them.
    - 5y ago

ThePadawan 5y ago

> That said: Personally, I do want my coworkers and I to be something akin to a family. If I’m going to spend around a third of my life working, I want to do it with a group of people I like and care about. I find that admirable, but having gone through a number of different workplaces in the last 6 years, also very naive. Out of the hundreds of colleagues I had, I would voluntarily choose to talk to maybe 3 of them. I don't think I find 97% of people I encounter in general disagreeable, in my experience Software Engineering just has loads and loads of "that guy"s. You know, the ones you try to avoid at parties. Except that's most of them, so you don't show up to the parties in the first place.

christophilus 5y ago
It’s not naive. I’ve found a place where I genuinely like and care for my coworkers. From personal experience, it is definitely worth the effort of looking for such a job.
- ThePadawan 5y ago
  Thank you so much. I have been on the job hunt since May 2020 and have only come up against obstacles so far. It has really cheered me up to hear those words!
  - prox 5y ago
    I too found such a company. They are a bit rarer. Lots of companies just don’t know how to manage people. You think with the thousands of management trainings that it would be so, but alas. A good company makes you happy, isn’t a perpetual stress fest and makes good money as well.
- forty 5y ago
  It's probably related to the fact that parent "has gone through a number of different workplaces in the last 6 years". I have been working at the same place for the last 9 years, it's much easier to build a "family" that way. Also the company was tiny when I joined, which helped. Of course it does come with some downsides, like the fact that it's tougher when someone leaves. That's life I guess :)

Closi 5y ago

Judging from other comments this will be an unpopular opinion, but the work environment doesn't seem hostile to me. Their biggest issue seems to be that they, and their co-worker, didn't get promotions: > I am currently far exceeding my “assistant” job description and am also seeking a title/compensation change to reflect the project manager role I’m now performing. > a friend in my department was told she would not receive a promotion because she is not a “team player.” When pressed, HR and her supervisor mentioned her absence from department-bonding activities. However i'm not sure that they are indicating the right behaviours for a promotion in their message. 1) They seem to think they should get a promotion without taking part in 'department-bonding activities', however taking part in these 'department-bonding activities' is ultimately part of being a manager in lots of companies (where your job becomes more about setting culture, building relationships and demonstrating the right behaviours). 2) They want a promotion, but are "resolutely firm on never working lunches or doing things outside of work hours". IMO Project Managers in lots of companies can't always have as firm boundaries about work and life as an assistant can, and there is an expectation that if things need to be done, they will stay late and work lunches to get stuff done when it needs to be done. That comes with the pay-packet unfortunately. 3) They think they should get a promotion, but describe the fact that they are seen frantically trying to get everything done in their current role, and tell people there is not enough time to join in on the company team-building activities which they appear to roll their eyes at - however the actual behaviour people should put on if they want to become promoted is to be like a 'swan' - i.e. rather than being seen to be busy and barely keeping up with your work, you are seen as gliding through your workload calmly while kicking vigorously under the water level, and still attending the social events despite having lots of work on because you are able to balance everything. So it sounds like "I want to get a promotion, however I don't want to do the part of the role that involves taking part in relationship-building activities (other than sending a few instant messages), and won't accept being flexible with my hours or even having a working lunch if we are in the shit".

rizzaxc 5y ago
yeah i dont get this woman. she wanna move higher up the ladder, but refusing to do "extra work" and excercising her presence in the company. how does she think she would function with the extra responsibilities?

cbozeman 5y ago

Reading bullshit like this article makes me realize why Joshua Fluke's YouTube channel is so popular. The jig is up. People aren't fooled any longer by corporate bullshit, and it's none too soon in my opinion.

mindvirus 5y ago

Maybe "like friends" is a better goal? People who will go out of their way for you and want you to succeed, but where there's still shared expectations of how you behave and interact.