4 ms·

> Here’s the root of the issue, and it’s not a technical problem. It’s the fundamental flaw of all these Level 2 driver-assist, full-attention required systems:

> Here’s the root of the issue, and it’s not a technical problem. It’s the fundamental flaw of all these Level 2 driver-assist, full-attention required systems: what problem are they actually solving? This article was so good and hits the nail on the head in so many spots. I actually find I can zone out and think about other things BETTER without autopilot on. My brain drives autonomously much better without me having to play the wheel force game and constantly be in anxiety at every AI controlled turn. My brain has had a lot of training sets over many decades and drives autonomously quite well.

pkulak 5y ago
Hmm… not me. Keeping myself centered in the lane is tiresome (first-world problem, I know). My car only requires that my hand be resting on the wheel. No games. It’s a bit annoying to be perfectly centered at all times, I will admit. You don’t notice until you’re no longer doing it, but lane positioning is very dependent on what’s next to you. For example, being centered in your lane next to a big rig actually feels uncomfortably close to it. Luckily my car lets me adjust where I am in the lane without disengaging, but I will turn off lane keeping entirely if I find I’m fighting it too often. Now, when someone makes a system that does smart lane positioning, I’ll be set! I still have zero interest in the city stuff mentioned in the article.
- rixed 5y ago
  I suspect the difference comes at least partially from the amount of electronic in between the stearing wheel and the road, preventing most feedback, including unconscious.
  - josephcsible 5y ago
    There is a direct mechanical link between the steering wheel and the car's front wheels. It's not steer-by-wire.
    - rixed 5y ago
      There have been many variations of assisted steering between mechanical assistance and steer by white, though.
- eganist 5y ago
  > Keeping myself centered in the lane is tiresome (first-world problem, I know). Only because first-world nations are a bit better at enforcing lane laws. India, Iran, Indonesia, etc... the lanes might as well not exist. I recognize this isn't the point you were trying to make, but it was what my mind was immediately drawn to lol
  - mithusingh32 5y ago
    In India you create your own lane.
    - ozfive 5y ago
      That's why traffic and traffic jams are so bad there. What a waste of human existence to be stuck in things that are solvable with adhering to some lines of paint.
- esalman 5y ago
  There are quite a few models in the market that are not Tesla and have lane centering assist.
libertine 5y ago
Something doesn't add up, and I think it's the author not being able to perceive the problem here. For example, OpenPilot seems to be very comfortable with Level 2 driver assist, and so do their customers - and their position seems to be make driving "chill", like you're commuting more relaxed because the car is doing the boring stuff, yet you need to be present to make some decisions. So clearly this is solving a problem for a lot of people. What people need to understand is that if you don't understand these products, then maybe they aren't meant for you - and that's OK! They are not trying to please everyone, yet that doesn't mean there's not a problem being solved for some.
- perl4ever 5y ago
  >the car is doing the boring stuff, yet you need to be present to make some decisions. That sounds like a useful thing, but it doesn't sound like what the article was about, and it doesn't sound like a thing that exists. I think a way to rephrase the problem is that humans are some things and machines are good at others, and one of the things that machines are good at is instant safety cutoffs. The self-driving attempts I've heard about rely on humans to be the safety cutoff. Cars are often milliseconds from disaster, because of the close lateral proximity of objects while driving. Like concrete Jersey barriers. You can create space in front of you, as they tell you in defensive driving class, but you can't create 360 degree space. This is the first I've heard about openpilot, but the first thing I read about it is that comma.ai released a device called "comma one" in 2016, a month later the NHTSA asked for information on it, and they said "lol, never mind, it's cancelled". I guess that it's open source now to avoid liability.
  - libertine 5y ago
    You should look more into comma.ai, they actually just released "Comma Three" few days ago, the first version with custom hardware and not only off the shelf parts. They actually track the driver and warn you to take control (when you're not looking at the road for example). They seem to be navigating well in terms of liability, namely saying they want to remain Level 2 for the foreseeable future. It's like an upgraded lane assistant/cruise control (of course it seems way better, not trying to sell it short). From what I've been reading, there's a lot of people that would much prefer this option over giving themselves fully to self driving, or even the current solution that Tesla provides. Btw I'm no expert on the comma project, I don't own any, I'm pretty sure there's plenty of people here that know way more then I do and probably own comma hardware. I just keep an eye on what George Hotz is up to.
SkyPuncher 5y ago
I have an L2 car and absolutely freaking love it. I still need to "drive" but I don't need to actively provide input every single moment that I'm driving. Basically, indeed to mimic the cars movements rather than force the car where I want it. It significantly reduces fatigue and generally increases my enjoyment t of driving.

pkulak 5y ago

Hmm… not me. Keeping myself centered in the lane is tiresome (first-world problem, I know). My car only requires that my hand be resting on the wheel. No games. It’s a bit annoying to be perfectly centered at all times, I will admit. You don’t notice until you’re no longer doing it, but lane positioning is very dependent on what’s next to you. For example, being centered in your lane next to a big rig actually feels uncomfortably close to it. Luckily my car lets me adjust where I am in the lane without disengaging, but I will turn off lane keeping entirely if I find I’m fighting it too often. Now, when someone makes a system that does smart lane positioning, I’ll be set! I still have zero interest in the city stuff mentioned in the article.

rixed 5y ago
I suspect the difference comes at least partially from the amount of electronic in between the stearing wheel and the road, preventing most feedback, including unconscious.
- josephcsible 5y ago
  There is a direct mechanical link between the steering wheel and the car's front wheels. It's not steer-by-wire.
  - rixed 5y ago
    There have been many variations of assisted steering between mechanical assistance and steer by white, though.
eganist 5y ago
> Keeping myself centered in the lane is tiresome (first-world problem, I know). Only because first-world nations are a bit better at enforcing lane laws. India, Iran, Indonesia, etc... the lanes might as well not exist. I recognize this isn't the point you were trying to make, but it was what my mind was immediately drawn to lol
- mithusingh32 5y ago
  In India you create your own lane.
  - ozfive 5y ago
    That's why traffic and traffic jams are so bad there. What a waste of human existence to be stuck in things that are solvable with adhering to some lines of paint.
esalman 5y ago
There are quite a few models in the market that are not Tesla and have lane centering assist.

libertine 5y ago

Something doesn't add up, and I think it's the author not being able to perceive the problem here. For example, OpenPilot seems to be very comfortable with Level 2 driver assist, and so do their customers - and their position seems to be make driving "chill", like you're commuting more relaxed because the car is doing the boring stuff, yet you need to be present to make some decisions. So clearly this is solving a problem for a lot of people. What people need to understand is that if you don't understand these products, then maybe they aren't meant for you - and that's OK! They are not trying to please everyone, yet that doesn't mean there's not a problem being solved for some.

perl4ever 5y ago
>the car is doing the boring stuff, yet you need to be present to make some decisions. That sounds like a useful thing, but it doesn't sound like what the article was about, and it doesn't sound like a thing that exists. I think a way to rephrase the problem is that humans are some things and machines are good at others, and one of the things that machines are good at is instant safety cutoffs. The self-driving attempts I've heard about rely on humans to be the safety cutoff. Cars are often milliseconds from disaster, because of the close lateral proximity of objects while driving. Like concrete Jersey barriers. You can create space in front of you, as they tell you in defensive driving class, but you can't create 360 degree space. This is the first I've heard about openpilot, but the first thing I read about it is that comma.ai released a device called "comma one" in 2016, a month later the NHTSA asked for information on it, and they said "lol, never mind, it's cancelled". I guess that it's open source now to avoid liability.
- libertine 5y ago
  You should look more into comma.ai, they actually just released "Comma Three" few days ago, the first version with custom hardware and not only off the shelf parts. They actually track the driver and warn you to take control (when you're not looking at the road for example). They seem to be navigating well in terms of liability, namely saying they want to remain Level 2 for the foreseeable future. It's like an upgraded lane assistant/cruise control (of course it seems way better, not trying to sell it short). From what I've been reading, there's a lot of people that would much prefer this option over giving themselves fully to self driving, or even the current solution that Tesla provides. Btw I'm no expert on the comma project, I don't own any, I'm pretty sure there's plenty of people here that know way more then I do and probably own comma hardware. I just keep an eye on what George Hotz is up to.

SkyPuncher 5y ago

I have an L2 car and absolutely freaking love it. I still need to "drive" but I don't need to actively provide input every single moment that I'm driving. Basically, indeed to mimic the cars movements rather than force the car where I want it. It significantly reduces fatigue and generally increases my enjoyment t of driving.