3 ms·

Intentionally misleading information is “misinformation”. Not sure how you can say otherwise. Most people don’t really care about how Uber and Lyft operate, and

by nscalf 5y ago

Intentionally misleading information is “misinformation”. Not sure how you can say otherwise. Most people don’t really care about how Uber and Lyft operate, and misinformation preys on individuals who only vaguely care. This is very real, and has massive impacts as most people exist on the margins of most issues. It takes a lot of time and effort to do your own independent research, and there are a lot of more important things in peoples lives.

Applejinx 5y ago
Thank you! It's always distressing to me when folks set up real-world things based on the notion, "this will work provided people are self-interested rational actors with a grasp of the situation". Sounds so simple, but what a demonstrably terrible axiom…
john_moscow 5y ago
>and misinformation preys on individuals who only vaguely care. Well, that's the real problem. People willing to act based on incomplete information they couldn't be bothered to research independently. As long as we have that, it all comes down to who can manipulate them better towards the desired decision (using labels like "misinformation" as one of the tactics), rather than what decision has better long-term perspectives.
- beckman466 5y ago
  > People willing to act based on incomplete information they couldn't be bothered to research independently. Who are these people you talk about? That is quite a grandiose generalization as it implies that you see yourself as someone who does do the research. Humor me by answering this question: what makes you able to do this research and others not? Would you consider the idea that many can't actually research things because the information has been locked away in a corporate vault or by capitalist knowledge hierarchies that severely limit access (through knowledge rent-seeking systems, i.e. through the IP system)? [1] Not to mention the fact that the current education system favors kids with the richest parents living in the richest neighborhoods. Learning requires trust and emotional safety which is increasingly starting to only be available to the owners of capital (and their children). Many now have stressed out parents with precarious zero-hour contracts or gig economy McJobs. I'd say we are living in some of the most unequal times, where education and knowledge have become ultra-commoditized. It's undemocratic at it's core. Maybe you don't see the luck you had on your own journey to be able to think critically? How do you know "they couldn't be bothered to research"? You calling them lazy seems like a comfortable and easy way to avoid considering systemic causes to this problem. Why focus your critique on individuals/workers yet give a free pass to huge over-resourced multinational firms? Do you think it's possible that you're not 100% in touch with the challenges and disadvantages that others face? > it all comes down to who can manipulate them better towards the desired decision (using labels like "misinformation" as one of the tactics) Your attempt to redefine the term 'misinformation' is very manipulative imo. It's the same strategy FOX news uses, and what they spend nearly all of their energy on. Many liberal news outlets do the same, FOX news just does it more overtly and targets the non-college educated. Consider the labeling by some news organizations of the teaching of a more accurate, nuanced and complete version of American history, a version that includes the genocide of Native Americans, and the transatlantic slave-trade etc., as 'un-patriotic' and 'un-American'. [2], [3] [1] Aaron Swartz, https://archive.org/stream/GuerillaOpenAccessManifesto/Goamjuly2008_djvu.txt https://archive.org/stream/GuerillaOpenAccessManifesto/Goamj... [2] https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2021/jun/25/critical-race-theory-rightwing-bogeyman-left-wing https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2021/jun/25/critic... [3] https://www.mediamatters.org/fox-news/fox-news-obsession-critical-race-theory-numbers https://www.mediamatters.org/fox-news/fox-news-obsession-cri...
  - john_moscow 5y ago
    >Consider the labeling by some news organizations of the teaching of a more accurate, nuanced and complete version of American history, a version that includes the genocide of Native Americans, and the transatlantic slave-trade etc., as 'un-patriotic' and 'un-American'. [2], [3] Oh, that's a perfect example if you actually look into the details of what is being taught. It's not about calling out specific behaviors that used to be norm decades/centuries ago and making sure we won't repeat them. It's about dividing the classroom students into 2 groups based on the factor they cannot chose (race) and claiming that: 1. The majority needs to feel guilt for the actions they have never committed, and cull their ambitions accordingly. 2. The minority should feel entitled to steamroll over the majority as a retribution for the actions committed by people that are long dead now. This is exactly how you introduce division in the society and make sure that instead of cooperating, people will spend their energy fighting against each other. My favorite example here is the actual text of the Trump's executive order [0] banning it: (a) “Divisive concepts” means the concepts that (1) one race or sex is inherently superior to another race or sex; (2) the United States is fundamentally racist or sexist; (3) an individual, by virtue of his or her race or sex, is inherently racist, sexist, or oppressive, whether consciously or unconsciously; (4) an individual should be discriminated against or receive adverse treatment solely or partly because of his or her race or sex; It was combating these specific divisive behaviors. Except, the order was presented by the media as "racist" and was quickly reversed by Biden. Most of the people supporting the reversal never did the actual research, they trusted the media that portrayed a very single-sided picture. Because someone decided anything pro-Trump is "misinformation" and everything pro-Biden isn't. If you want an example of the media bias, try searching for "trump executive order critical race theory" on Google [1] vs DuckDuckGo [2] and compare the effort needed to find the actual facts. [0] https://trumpwhitehouse.archives.gov/presidential-actions/executive-order-combating-race-sex-stereotyping/ https://trumpwhitehouse.archives.gov/presidential-actions/ex... [1] https://duckduckgo.com/?q=trump+executive+order+critical+race+theory https://duckduckgo.com/?q=trump+executive+order+critical+rac... [2] https://www.google.com/search?q=trump+executive+order+critical+race+theory https://www.google.com/search?q=trump+executive+order+critic...

by nscalf 5y ago

Applejinx 5y ago

Thank you! It's always distressing to me when folks set up real-world things based on the notion, "this will work provided people are self-interested rational actors with a grasp of the situation". Sounds so simple, but what a demonstrably terrible axiom…

john_moscow 5y ago

>and misinformation preys on individuals who only vaguely care. Well, that's the real problem. People willing to act based on incomplete information they couldn't be bothered to research independently. As long as we have that, it all comes down to who can manipulate them better towards the desired decision (using labels like "misinformation" as one of the tactics), rather than what decision has better long-term perspectives.

beckman466 5y ago
> People willing to act based on incomplete information they couldn't be bothered to research independently. Who are these people you talk about? That is quite a grandiose generalization as it implies that you see yourself as someone who does do the research. Humor me by answering this question: what makes you able to do this research and others not? Would you consider the idea that many can't actually research things because the information has been locked away in a corporate vault or by capitalist knowledge hierarchies that severely limit access (through knowledge rent-seeking systems, i.e. through the IP system)? [1] Not to mention the fact that the current education system favors kids with the richest parents living in the richest neighborhoods. Learning requires trust and emotional safety which is increasingly starting to only be available to the owners of capital (and their children). Many now have stressed out parents with precarious zero-hour contracts or gig economy McJobs. I'd say we are living in some of the most unequal times, where education and knowledge have become ultra-commoditized. It's undemocratic at it's core. Maybe you don't see the luck you had on your own journey to be able to think critically? How do you know "they couldn't be bothered to research"? You calling them lazy seems like a comfortable and easy way to avoid considering systemic causes to this problem. Why focus your critique on individuals/workers yet give a free pass to huge over-resourced multinational firms? Do you think it's possible that you're not 100% in touch with the challenges and disadvantages that others face? > it all comes down to who can manipulate them better towards the desired decision (using labels like "misinformation" as one of the tactics) Your attempt to redefine the term 'misinformation' is very manipulative imo. It's the same strategy FOX news uses, and what they spend nearly all of their energy on. Many liberal news outlets do the same, FOX news just does it more overtly and targets the non-college educated. Consider the labeling by some news organizations of the teaching of a more accurate, nuanced and complete version of American history, a version that includes the genocide of Native Americans, and the transatlantic slave-trade etc., as 'un-patriotic' and 'un-American'. [2], [3] [1] Aaron Swartz, https://archive.org/stream/GuerillaOpenAccessManifesto/Goamjuly2008_djvu.txt https://archive.org/stream/GuerillaOpenAccessManifesto/Goamj... [2] https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2021/jun/25/critical-race-theory-rightwing-bogeyman-left-wing https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2021/jun/25/critic... [3] https://www.mediamatters.org/fox-news/fox-news-obsession-critical-race-theory-numbers https://www.mediamatters.org/fox-news/fox-news-obsession-cri...
- john_moscow 5y ago
  >Consider the labeling by some news organizations of the teaching of a more accurate, nuanced and complete version of American history, a version that includes the genocide of Native Americans, and the transatlantic slave-trade etc., as 'un-patriotic' and 'un-American'. [2], [3] Oh, that's a perfect example if you actually look into the details of what is being taught. It's not about calling out specific behaviors that used to be norm decades/centuries ago and making sure we won't repeat them. It's about dividing the classroom students into 2 groups based on the factor they cannot chose (race) and claiming that: 1. The majority needs to feel guilt for the actions they have never committed, and cull their ambitions accordingly. 2. The minority should feel entitled to steamroll over the majority as a retribution for the actions committed by people that are long dead now. This is exactly how you introduce division in the society and make sure that instead of cooperating, people will spend their energy fighting against each other. My favorite example here is the actual text of the Trump's executive order [0] banning it: (a) “Divisive concepts” means the concepts that (1) one race or sex is inherently superior to another race or sex; (2) the United States is fundamentally racist or sexist; (3) an individual, by virtue of his or her race or sex, is inherently racist, sexist, or oppressive, whether consciously or unconsciously; (4) an individual should be discriminated against or receive adverse treatment solely or partly because of his or her race or sex; It was combating these specific divisive behaviors. Except, the order was presented by the media as "racist" and was quickly reversed by Biden. Most of the people supporting the reversal never did the actual research, they trusted the media that portrayed a very single-sided picture. Because someone decided anything pro-Trump is "misinformation" and everything pro-Biden isn't. If you want an example of the media bias, try searching for "trump executive order critical race theory" on Google [1] vs DuckDuckGo [2] and compare the effort needed to find the actual facts. [0] https://trumpwhitehouse.archives.gov/presidential-actions/executive-order-combating-race-sex-stereotyping/ https://trumpwhitehouse.archives.gov/presidential-actions/ex... [1] https://duckduckgo.com/?q=trump+executive+order+critical+race+theory https://duckduckgo.com/?q=trump+executive+order+critical+rac... [2] https://www.google.com/search?q=trump+executive+order+critical+race+theory https://www.google.com/search?q=trump+executive+order+critic...