6 ms·

This is the ballot initiative that Uber and Lyft pumped $200 million into a misinformation campaign for https://www.vice.com/en/article/akddx8/proposition-22s-

This is the ballot initiative that Uber and Lyft pumped $200 million into a misinformation campaign for https://www.vice.com/en/article/akddx8/proposition-22s-victory-shows-how-uber-and-lyft-break-democracy https://www.vice.com/en/article/akddx8/proposition-22s-victo... https://twitter.com/bigblackjacobin/status/1294865684782919686 https://twitter.com/bigblackjacobin/status/12948656847829196... https://twitter.com/darakerr/status/1299395127253762049 https://twitter.com/darakerr/status/1299395127253762049 https://www.wired.com/story/200-million-uber-lyft-write-own-labor-law/ https://www.wired.com/story/200-million-uber-lyft-write-own-...

harles 5y ago
Unions with a direct line to the legislature created AB 5. I’m amazed so many people are ok with that while shaming Uber for spending money to encourage voters to overturn it.
- sudosysgen 5y ago
  It's pretty obvious why someone would be okay with unions lobbying and not okay with corporations doing it. One of the two is at least as democratic as the government itself and it's not Uber.
  - skohan 5y ago
    Yes it's basically the main goal of organized labor to support the best interest of workers by any means, including legislative means. How on earth else are workers supposed to get legal protections against the multi-billion dollar corporations which are trying to give them the worst deal possible?
    - harles 5y ago
      Except this was a pretty overt land grab to expand the unions into new territory. How did AB5 support existing union members?
      - skohan 5y ago
        From their point of view, they might see the rise in a gig-work as a threat against their workers. After all, if Uber and Lyft are allowed to replace unionized taxi drivers with underpaid "private contractors" with no labor rights, what's to stop someone else from doing it with other industries?
  - GaryTang 5y ago
    Another main distinction is one pays you and the other charges you.
    - dundarious 5y ago
      One is organized against you, and one is organized for you, respectively. You get what you pay for.
      - ialyos 5y ago
        I don't think that's true. As a consumer I pay Uber, that internally splits its revenue between unionized and non unionized labor. Both parties want money, and the both charge me for it.
        dundarious 5y ago
        I was referring to the workers who are the only ones who get paid by Uber. They pay union dues.
  - harles 5y ago
    So not having citizens vote on legislation is the more democratic? Lobbying is?
    - sudosysgen 5y ago
      I never said that having citizens vote on legislation is less democratic. As far as lobbying, both Uber and unions do it and when unions do it, it's far more democratic yes.
      - harles 5y ago
        How is giving unions a special line to legislators democratic? Because union leaders are elected like company directors?
        sudosysgen 5y ago
        The reason they have such a special lines is because unions represent tens of thousands of voters, and politicians care about getting their votes. They are a very strong force in deciding elections.
        harles 5y ago
        Tens of thousands deciding what’s law in a state with tens of millions sure doesn’t sound democratic. This is the definition of special interest and is the opposite of democratic.
- Traster 5y ago
  Because unions represent the broad will of a large class of workers, whereas companies like lyft and uber represent the broad will of a handful of investors most of whom don't even pay tax or live in California.
john_moscow 5y ago
There is no such thing as "misinformation". Every information that gets to you serves somebody's interest. There's no excuse for not doing your own due independent verification of the facts and motivations, and it's very naïve to think that someone will separate "truth" from "misinformation" for you without their own very selfish agenda.
- nscalf 5y ago
  Intentionally misleading information is “misinformation”. Not sure how you can say otherwise. Most people don’t really care about how Uber and Lyft operate, and misinformation preys on individuals who only vaguely care. This is very real, and has massive impacts as most people exist on the margins of most issues. It takes a lot of time and effort to do your own independent research, and there are a lot of more important things in peoples lives.
  - Applejinx 5y ago
    Thank you! It's always distressing to me when folks set up real-world things based on the notion, "this will work provided people are self-interested rational actors with a grasp of the situation". Sounds so simple, but what a demonstrably terrible axiom…
  - john_moscow 5y ago
    >and misinformation preys on individuals who only vaguely care. Well, that's the real problem. People willing to act based on incomplete information they couldn't be bothered to research independently. As long as we have that, it all comes down to who can manipulate them better towards the desired decision (using labels like "misinformation" as one of the tactics), rather than what decision has better long-term perspectives.
    - beckman466 5y ago
      > People willing to act based on incomplete information they couldn't be bothered to research independently. Who are these people you talk about? That is quite a grandiose generalization as it implies that you see yourself as someone who does do the research. Humor me by answering this question: what makes you able to do this research and others not? Would you consider the idea that many can't actually research things because the information has been locked away in a corporate vault or by capitalist knowledge hierarchies that severely limit access (through knowledge rent-seeking systems, i.e. through the IP system)? [1] Not to mention the fact that the current education system favors kids with the richest parents living in the richest neighborhoods. Learning requires trust and emotional safety which is increasingly starting to only be available to the owners of capital (and their children). Many now have stressed out parents with precarious zero-hour contracts or gig economy McJobs. I'd say we are living in some of the most unequal times, where education and knowledge have become ultra-commoditized. It's undemocratic at it's core. Maybe you don't see the luck you had on your own journey to be able to think critically? How do you know "they couldn't be bothered to research"? You calling them lazy seems like a comfortable and easy way to avoid considering systemic causes to this problem. Why focus your critique on individuals/workers yet give a free pass to huge over-resourced multinational firms? Do you think it's possible that you're not 100% in touch with the challenges and disadvantages that others face? > it all comes down to who can manipulate them better towards the desired decision (using labels like "misinformation" as one of the tactics) Your attempt to redefine the term 'misinformation' is very manipulative imo. It's the same strategy FOX news uses, and what they spend nearly all of their energy on. Many liberal news outlets do the same, FOX news just does it more overtly and targets the non-college educated. Consider the labeling by some news organizations of the teaching of a more accurate, nuanced and complete version of American history, a version that includes the genocide of Native Americans, and the transatlantic slave-trade etc., as 'un-patriotic' and 'un-American'. [2], [3] [1] Aaron Swartz, https://archive.org/stream/GuerillaOpenAccessManifesto/Goamjuly2008_djvu.txt https://archive.org/stream/GuerillaOpenAccessManifesto/Goamj... [2] https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2021/jun/25/critical-race-theory-rightwing-bogeyman-left-wing https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2021/jun/25/critic... [3] https://www.mediamatters.org/fox-news/fox-news-obsession-critical-race-theory-numbers https://www.mediamatters.org/fox-news/fox-news-obsession-cri...

harles 5y ago

Unions with a direct line to the legislature created AB 5. I’m amazed so many people are ok with that while shaming Uber for spending money to encourage voters to overturn it.

sudosysgen 5y ago
It's pretty obvious why someone would be okay with unions lobbying and not okay with corporations doing it. One of the two is at least as democratic as the government itself and it's not Uber.
- skohan 5y ago
  Yes it's basically the main goal of organized labor to support the best interest of workers by any means, including legislative means. How on earth else are workers supposed to get legal protections against the multi-billion dollar corporations which are trying to give them the worst deal possible?
  - harles 5y ago
    Except this was a pretty overt land grab to expand the unions into new territory. How did AB5 support existing union members?
    - skohan 5y ago
      From their point of view, they might see the rise in a gig-work as a threat against their workers. After all, if Uber and Lyft are allowed to replace unionized taxi drivers with underpaid "private contractors" with no labor rights, what's to stop someone else from doing it with other industries?
- GaryTang 5y ago
  Another main distinction is one pays you and the other charges you.
  - dundarious 5y ago
    One is organized against you, and one is organized for you, respectively. You get what you pay for.
    - ialyos 5y ago
      I don't think that's true. As a consumer I pay Uber, that internally splits its revenue between unionized and non unionized labor. Both parties want money, and the both charge me for it.
      - dundarious 5y ago
        I was referring to the workers who are the only ones who get paid by Uber. They pay union dues.
- harles 5y ago
  So not having citizens vote on legislation is the more democratic? Lobbying is?
  - sudosysgen 5y ago
    I never said that having citizens vote on legislation is less democratic. As far as lobbying, both Uber and unions do it and when unions do it, it's far more democratic yes.
    - harles 5y ago
      How is giving unions a special line to legislators democratic? Because union leaders are elected like company directors?
      - sudosysgen 5y ago
        The reason they have such a special lines is because unions represent tens of thousands of voters, and politicians care about getting their votes. They are a very strong force in deciding elections.
        harles 5y ago
        Tens of thousands deciding what’s law in a state with tens of millions sure doesn’t sound democratic. This is the definition of special interest and is the opposite of democratic.
Traster 5y ago
Because unions represent the broad will of a large class of workers, whereas companies like lyft and uber represent the broad will of a handful of investors most of whom don't even pay tax or live in California.

john_moscow 5y ago

There is no such thing as "misinformation". Every information that gets to you serves somebody's interest. There's no excuse for not doing your own due independent verification of the facts and motivations, and it's very naïve to think that someone will separate "truth" from "misinformation" for you without their own very selfish agenda.

nscalf 5y ago
Intentionally misleading information is “misinformation”. Not sure how you can say otherwise. Most people don’t really care about how Uber and Lyft operate, and misinformation preys on individuals who only vaguely care. This is very real, and has massive impacts as most people exist on the margins of most issues. It takes a lot of time and effort to do your own independent research, and there are a lot of more important things in peoples lives.
- Applejinx 5y ago
  Thank you! It's always distressing to me when folks set up real-world things based on the notion, "this will work provided people are self-interested rational actors with a grasp of the situation". Sounds so simple, but what a demonstrably terrible axiom…
- john_moscow 5y ago
  >and misinformation preys on individuals who only vaguely care. Well, that's the real problem. People willing to act based on incomplete information they couldn't be bothered to research independently. As long as we have that, it all comes down to who can manipulate them better towards the desired decision (using labels like "misinformation" as one of the tactics), rather than what decision has better long-term perspectives.
  - beckman466 5y ago
    > People willing to act based on incomplete information they couldn't be bothered to research independently. Who are these people you talk about? That is quite a grandiose generalization as it implies that you see yourself as someone who does do the research. Humor me by answering this question: what makes you able to do this research and others not? Would you consider the idea that many can't actually research things because the information has been locked away in a corporate vault or by capitalist knowledge hierarchies that severely limit access (through knowledge rent-seeking systems, i.e. through the IP system)? [1] Not to mention the fact that the current education system favors kids with the richest parents living in the richest neighborhoods. Learning requires trust and emotional safety which is increasingly starting to only be available to the owners of capital (and their children). Many now have stressed out parents with precarious zero-hour contracts or gig economy McJobs. I'd say we are living in some of the most unequal times, where education and knowledge have become ultra-commoditized. It's undemocratic at it's core. Maybe you don't see the luck you had on your own journey to be able to think critically? How do you know "they couldn't be bothered to research"? You calling them lazy seems like a comfortable and easy way to avoid considering systemic causes to this problem. Why focus your critique on individuals/workers yet give a free pass to huge over-resourced multinational firms? Do you think it's possible that you're not 100% in touch with the challenges and disadvantages that others face? > it all comes down to who can manipulate them better towards the desired decision (using labels like "misinformation" as one of the tactics) Your attempt to redefine the term 'misinformation' is very manipulative imo. It's the same strategy FOX news uses, and what they spend nearly all of their energy on. Many liberal news outlets do the same, FOX news just does it more overtly and targets the non-college educated. Consider the labeling by some news organizations of the teaching of a more accurate, nuanced and complete version of American history, a version that includes the genocide of Native Americans, and the transatlantic slave-trade etc., as 'un-patriotic' and 'un-American'. [2], [3] [1] Aaron Swartz, https://archive.org/stream/GuerillaOpenAccessManifesto/Goamjuly2008_djvu.txt https://archive.org/stream/GuerillaOpenAccessManifesto/Goamj... [2] https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2021/jun/25/critical-race-theory-rightwing-bogeyman-left-wing https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2021/jun/25/critic... [3] https://www.mediamatters.org/fox-news/fox-news-obsession-critical-race-theory-numbers https://www.mediamatters.org/fox-news/fox-news-obsession-cri...