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I think the problem is that "calories in, calories out" is not that easy since it's hard to measure the calories in and the calories out precisely. "Calories ou

by Zababa 5y ago

I think the problem is that "calories in, calories out" is not that easy since it's hard to measure the calories in and the calories out precisely. "Calories out" especially, as most people will just tell people to use a TDEE calculator or some other approximation. When you're then asking them to have a 500 calories deficit, it is very possible that it won't work for them as they (as in, the tool they used) overestimated the "calories out" part. Edit: to expand on that, "calories in, calories out" is a classic motte and bailey (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Motte-and-bailey_fallacy https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Motte-and-bailey_fallacy). Here the motte is "it's easy for anyone to lose weight, just input a few numbers in a few apps". The bailey is "calories in, calories out is scientifically true". I've never seen advocates of calories in, calories out offering a more precise way to measure the consumption of calories than a TDEE calculator that you can find online, where you usually input your weight, height, age and sex. The "calories in" part is easier to deal with, as if you measure everything you put in your mouth, you have the upper bound of the calories you can absorb. Still, the calories out are hard to measure reliably, especially in people that already have a slower metabolism than others (which makes it easier for them to gain weight in the first place). There's also the distinction that "calorie intake" is often meant as "what you put into your mouth" but is actually "what you actually absorb".

MichaelGroves 5y ago
> I think the problem is that "calories in, calories out" is not that easy since it's hard to measure the calories in and the calories out precisely. You don't have to, precise calorie counting is a strawman argument against CICO. All the fat people I've ever known, which is most of my family and many of my friends, all eat way too much. I ate too much too, ever since I was a kid. Huge portion sizes and constantly grazing throughout the day without set meal times were the norm for me and those around me. After hearing CICO repeated often, I recognized these behaviors in myself and corrected them. I didn't need to count calories for any of it. Where I would once buy a pizza and devour it over the course of an evening, I now save half for lunch the next day. Anybody can do that if they choose to. By eating less, I've lost about 75 lbs in 5 years.
- Zababa 5y ago
  So your refutation against that is your personal experience? I'm glad it worked out for you but that seem a bit weak. > precise calorie counting is a strawman argument against CICO Precise calorie counting is what most people talking about CICO promote though. And not to "get an intuition for how much calories are in food", what you hear most often is "calculate your TDEE, eat 500 calories under".
  - MichaelGroves 5y ago
    The most important message of CICO is not "count your calories". It's "you're fat because you eat too much." Matter isn't materializing out of the aether and putting itself into your ass, it comes from you eating too much food. Fat people are fat because there is an imbalance in how much they eat and how active they are. And in modern American society, the vast majority of it is from a culture of binge eating. This is what I've observed not only in myself, but in every other fat person I've met. There are all kinds of coping mechanisms people use to excuse themselves and stay fat. "I don't eat more than normal, I'm just a genetic anomaly who absorbs more nutrients from food than everybody else.." Well assuming that wasn't BS, the answer is still to eat less. Or "CICO is just a thought terminating cliche"; if I had fallen for that BS, I'd still be fat. I'm glad I saw through those lies.
- balfirevic 5y ago
  > I would once buy a pizza and devour it over the course of an evening, I now save half for lunch the next day. Do you have trouble falling asleep while hungry?
pessimizer 5y ago
I don't see how it's supposed to follow that because calories-in are calories-out that it's easy to change calories-in. What it says is that it's not magical, it's just difficult. If one keeps denying the source of the weight, they have no hope of ever changing it in a direction they prefer. That, in the mouth of some super-aggressive willpower, self-help, libertarian, laissez faire entrepreneur type, of course becomes an attack on weakness, but everything out of their mouths is going to stink of social darwinism. But I think it contains hope - it's not a curse or a punishment, it's a physical process.

by Zababa 5y ago

MichaelGroves 5y ago

> I think the problem is that "calories in, calories out" is not that easy since it's hard to measure the calories in and the calories out precisely. You don't have to, precise calorie counting is a strawman argument against CICO. All the fat people I've ever known, which is most of my family and many of my friends, all eat way too much. I ate too much too, ever since I was a kid. Huge portion sizes and constantly grazing throughout the day without set meal times were the norm for me and those around me. After hearing CICO repeated often, I recognized these behaviors in myself and corrected them. I didn't need to count calories for any of it. Where I would once buy a pizza and devour it over the course of an evening, I now save half for lunch the next day. Anybody can do that if they choose to. By eating less, I've lost about 75 lbs in 5 years.

Zababa 5y ago
So your refutation against that is your personal experience? I'm glad it worked out for you but that seem a bit weak. > precise calorie counting is a strawman argument against CICO Precise calorie counting is what most people talking about CICO promote though. And not to "get an intuition for how much calories are in food", what you hear most often is "calculate your TDEE, eat 500 calories under".
- MichaelGroves 5y ago
  The most important message of CICO is not "count your calories". It's "you're fat because you eat too much." Matter isn't materializing out of the aether and putting itself into your ass, it comes from you eating too much food. Fat people are fat because there is an imbalance in how much they eat and how active they are. And in modern American society, the vast majority of it is from a culture of binge eating. This is what I've observed not only in myself, but in every other fat person I've met. There are all kinds of coping mechanisms people use to excuse themselves and stay fat. "I don't eat more than normal, I'm just a genetic anomaly who absorbs more nutrients from food than everybody else.." Well assuming that wasn't BS, the answer is still to eat less. Or "CICO is just a thought terminating cliche"; if I had fallen for that BS, I'd still be fat. I'm glad I saw through those lies.
balfirevic 5y ago
> I would once buy a pizza and devour it over the course of an evening, I now save half for lunch the next day. Do you have trouble falling asleep while hungry?

pessimizer 5y ago

I don't see how it's supposed to follow that because calories-in are calories-out that it's easy to change calories-in. What it says is that it's not magical, it's just difficult. If one keeps denying the source of the weight, they have no hope of ever changing it in a direction they prefer. That, in the mouth of some super-aggressive willpower, self-help, libertarian, laissez faire entrepreneur type, of course becomes an attack on weakness, but everything out of their mouths is going to stink of social darwinism. But I think it contains hope - it's not a curse or a punishment, it's a physical process.