5 ms·

Yeah, as long as COVID-19 fills up hospitals we should do this. Not having hospitals seriously compromises quality of life. I had untreated kidney stones for a

Yeah, as long as COVID-19 fills up hospitals we should do this. Not having hospitals seriously compromises quality of life. I had untreated kidney stones for about a week at the peak of the pandemic. When I was in the middle of an attack I could not work, the pain was too severe. I was missing several hours of work everyday just dealing with pain. I finally got to the emergency room which did basic imaging and gave me painkillers and muscle relaxers. I didn’t get the actual stones removed until 6 months later! So yes, I’d rather vaccinate and mask up then be denied healthcare.

walterbell 5y ago
> Not having hospitals seriously compromises quality of life. A non-trivial percentage of healthcare workers were infected in 2020 and recovered with natural immunity to Covid. Some of those feel strongly enough about vaccine mandates that they are prepared to move jurisdictions or retire, which would exacerbate existing staffing shortages in some hospitals. If we don't want more hospital shortages, we should reconsider unnecessary vaccine mandates for those with hard-earned natural immunity, which includes nasal/mucosal immunity, unlike intramuscular vaccines that were developed for symptom reduction, https://www.statnews.com/2021/08/10/covid-intranasal-vaccines/ https://www.statnews.com/2021/08/10/covid-intranasal-vaccine... > Vaccines that are injected into the arm have done a spectacular job at preventing severe disease and death. But they do not generate the kind of protection in the nasal passages that would be needed to block all infection. That’s called “sterilizing immunity.” The fact that the vaccines don’t block all infections and don’t prevent vaccinated people from transmitting isn’t a big surprise, said Kathryn Edwards, a vaccine expert at Vanderbilt School of Medicine. The UK's SAGE also commented on nasal (inhaler) vaccine development and the consequences of non-sterilizing intramuscular vaccines for variants, https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/long-term-evolution-of-sars-cov-2-26-july-2021 https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/long-term-evoluti... > Whilst we feel that current vaccines are excellent for reducing the risk of hospital admission and disease, we propose that research be focused on vaccines that also induce high and durable levels of mucosal immunity in order to reduce infection of and transmission from vaccinated individuals. This could also reduce the possibility of variant selection in vaccinated individuals.
- rescripting 5y ago
  A recent study showed having had COVID before offers less protection from reinfection than the vaccine [0]. "The study of hundreds of Kentucky residents with previous infections through June 2021 found that those who were unvaccinated had 2.34 times the odds of reinfection compared with those who were fully vaccinated. The findings suggest that among people who have had COVID-19 previously, getting fully vaccinated provides additional protection against reinfection." [0] https://www.cdc.gov/media/releases/2021/s0806-vaccination-protection.html https://www.cdc.gov/media/releases/2021/s0806-vaccination-pr...
  - walterbell 5y ago
    Detailed response to that study, https://satyameva.medium.com/analysis-of-reduced-risk-of-reinfection-with-sars-cov-2-after-covid-19-vaccination-in-kentucky-2e797a5f3c44 https://satyameva.medium.com/analysis-of-reduced-risk-of-rei... > Also what should be obvious is this study doesn’t really look at the relative strengths of naturally acquired immunity vs vaccination acquired immunity, it is looking at whether vaccination can add further to the robust protection elicited by covid infection. Latest UK data shows 137 confirmed cases of reinfection out of 5.2 million first-positive PCR tests, which works out to 0.003%, https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/1012240/Weekly_Flu_and_COVID-19_report_w33.pdf https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/... (see chart on page 18)
  - sreque 5y ago
    This article completely destroy the CDC's report: https://www.powerlineblog.com/archives/2021/08/more-voodoo-epidemiology-at-the-cdc.php https://www.powerlineblog.com/archives/2021/08/more-voodoo-e.... The CDC's report is a fantastic example as to why the CDC don't deserve our trust. They are dishonest. They cherry pick data to fit their narrative. They are unburdened by the constraints of peer review. They admit in their own study that it can't apply causation and yet they remain silent as the media run wild and report the study as causative fact. This analysis has, to my knowledge, not been debunked at all: https://arieh.substack.com/p/inside-israels-delta-outbreak-part https://arieh.substack.com/p/inside-israels-delta-outbreak-p.... It shows natural immunity far outclassing vaccine immunity in Israel. In terms of peer reviewed studies, they all show that natural immunity is fantastic: https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jama/fullarticle/2781112 https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jama/fullarticle/2781112 https://www.thelancet.com/action/showPdf?pii=S2589-5370(21)00182-6 https://www.thelancet.com/action/showPdf?pii=S2589-5370(21)0... https://www.cell.com/cell-reports-medicine/fulltext/S2666-3791(21)00203-2 https://www.cell.com/cell-reports-medicine/fulltext/S2666-37... https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC8209951/pdf/RMV-9999-e2260.pdf https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC8209951/pdf/RMV...
criticaltinker 5y ago
First off, I'm sorry you had to suffer like that - and I don't want anyone to be denied healthcare. > I’d rather vaccinate and mask up then be denied healthcare You've presented a false dichotomy here - mass vaccination and masking will not necessarily prevent overwhelmed hospitals. Israel is a prime example - with one of the highest vaccination rates in the world - their hospitals are being overwhelmed right now due to the variants. The CDC is reporting similar data from the U.S. [1][2][3]. There's no doubt that vaccination is saving some lives, but it also may be partly to blame for the increasing dominance of variants of concern. [4][5] And counterintuitively, compulsory masking is likely setting us up for a very bad winter in terms of endemic illnesses such as influenza and RSV - which poses an increased risk of overwhelming medical facilities even further. I only raise these counterpoints to help inform others and bring much needed nuance to these discussions. [1] https://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/volumes/70/wr/mm7034e3.htm https://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/volumes/70/wr/mm7034e3.htm [2] https://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/acip/meetings/downloads/slides-2021-08-13/04-COVID-Scobie-508.pdf https://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/acip/meetings/downloads/slides-... [3] https://www.cdc.gov/library/covid19/08132021_covidupdate.html https://www.cdc.gov/library/covid19/08132021_covidupdate.htm... [4] Risk of rapid evolutionary escape from biomedical interventions targeting SARS-CoV-2 spike protein https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/33909660/ https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/33909660/ [5] Can we predict the limits of SARS-CoV-2 variants and their phenotypic consequences? https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/long-term-evolution-of-sars-cov-2-26-july-2021 https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/long-term-evoluti... [6] The impact of COVID-19 nonpharmaceutical interventions on the future dynamics of endemic infections https://www.pnas.org/content/117/48/30547 https://www.pnas.org/content/117/48/30547
- eecc 5y ago
  Only 66% of Israelis are fully vaccinated: there's a good 3 million hard-core religious orthodox who won't let science interfere with their deity's will. 3 million of blissfully and deliberately ignorant individuals who won't adapt their social behavior to avoid viral spread is more than enough to overrun any health system.
  - walterbell 5y ago
nazgulnarsil 5y ago
For people in a similar situation. Chanca Piedra might help.
loceng 5y ago
How about also starting mass campaign to get people healthy and taking appropriate supplements - using carrots where necessary?
cryptonector 5y ago
Hospitals are always full. Like any business, they mean to run at close to capacity. Capacity here has more to do with staffing than actual rooms, beds, or equipment.

walterbell 5y ago

> Not having hospitals seriously compromises quality of life. A non-trivial percentage of healthcare workers were infected in 2020 and recovered with natural immunity to Covid. Some of those feel strongly enough about vaccine mandates that they are prepared to move jurisdictions or retire, which would exacerbate existing staffing shortages in some hospitals. If we don't want more hospital shortages, we should reconsider unnecessary vaccine mandates for those with hard-earned natural immunity, which includes nasal/mucosal immunity, unlike intramuscular vaccines that were developed for symptom reduction, https://www.statnews.com/2021/08/10/covid-intranasal-vaccines/ https://www.statnews.com/2021/08/10/covid-intranasal-vaccine... > Vaccines that are injected into the arm have done a spectacular job at preventing severe disease and death. But they do not generate the kind of protection in the nasal passages that would be needed to block all infection. That’s called “sterilizing immunity.” The fact that the vaccines don’t block all infections and don’t prevent vaccinated people from transmitting isn’t a big surprise, said Kathryn Edwards, a vaccine expert at Vanderbilt School of Medicine. The UK's SAGE also commented on nasal (inhaler) vaccine development and the consequences of non-sterilizing intramuscular vaccines for variants, https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/long-term-evolution-of-sars-cov-2-26-july-2021 https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/long-term-evoluti... > Whilst we feel that current vaccines are excellent for reducing the risk of hospital admission and disease, we propose that research be focused on vaccines that also induce high and durable levels of mucosal immunity in order to reduce infection of and transmission from vaccinated individuals. This could also reduce the possibility of variant selection in vaccinated individuals.

rescripting 5y ago
A recent study showed having had COVID before offers less protection from reinfection than the vaccine [0]. "The study of hundreds of Kentucky residents with previous infections through June 2021 found that those who were unvaccinated had 2.34 times the odds of reinfection compared with those who were fully vaccinated. The findings suggest that among people who have had COVID-19 previously, getting fully vaccinated provides additional protection against reinfection." [0] https://www.cdc.gov/media/releases/2021/s0806-vaccination-protection.html https://www.cdc.gov/media/releases/2021/s0806-vaccination-pr...
- walterbell 5y ago
  Detailed response to that study, https://satyameva.medium.com/analysis-of-reduced-risk-of-reinfection-with-sars-cov-2-after-covid-19-vaccination-in-kentucky-2e797a5f3c44 https://satyameva.medium.com/analysis-of-reduced-risk-of-rei... > Also what should be obvious is this study doesn’t really look at the relative strengths of naturally acquired immunity vs vaccination acquired immunity, it is looking at whether vaccination can add further to the robust protection elicited by covid infection. Latest UK data shows 137 confirmed cases of reinfection out of 5.2 million first-positive PCR tests, which works out to 0.003%, https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/1012240/Weekly_Flu_and_COVID-19_report_w33.pdf https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/... (see chart on page 18)
- sreque 5y ago
  This article completely destroy the CDC's report: https://www.powerlineblog.com/archives/2021/08/more-voodoo-epidemiology-at-the-cdc.php https://www.powerlineblog.com/archives/2021/08/more-voodoo-e.... The CDC's report is a fantastic example as to why the CDC don't deserve our trust. They are dishonest. They cherry pick data to fit their narrative. They are unburdened by the constraints of peer review. They admit in their own study that it can't apply causation and yet they remain silent as the media run wild and report the study as causative fact. This analysis has, to my knowledge, not been debunked at all: https://arieh.substack.com/p/inside-israels-delta-outbreak-part https://arieh.substack.com/p/inside-israels-delta-outbreak-p.... It shows natural immunity far outclassing vaccine immunity in Israel. In terms of peer reviewed studies, they all show that natural immunity is fantastic: https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jama/fullarticle/2781112 https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jama/fullarticle/2781112 https://www.thelancet.com/action/showPdf?pii=S2589-5370(21)00182-6 https://www.thelancet.com/action/showPdf?pii=S2589-5370(21)0... https://www.cell.com/cell-reports-medicine/fulltext/S2666-3791(21)00203-2 https://www.cell.com/cell-reports-medicine/fulltext/S2666-37... https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC8209951/pdf/RMV-9999-e2260.pdf https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC8209951/pdf/RMV...

criticaltinker 5y ago

First off, I'm sorry you had to suffer like that - and I don't want anyone to be denied healthcare. > I’d rather vaccinate and mask up then be denied healthcare You've presented a false dichotomy here - mass vaccination and masking will not necessarily prevent overwhelmed hospitals. Israel is a prime example - with one of the highest vaccination rates in the world - their hospitals are being overwhelmed right now due to the variants. The CDC is reporting similar data from the U.S. [1][2][3]. There's no doubt that vaccination is saving some lives, but it also may be partly to blame for the increasing dominance of variants of concern. [4][5] And counterintuitively, compulsory masking is likely setting us up for a very bad winter in terms of endemic illnesses such as influenza and RSV - which poses an increased risk of overwhelming medical facilities even further. I only raise these counterpoints to help inform others and bring much needed nuance to these discussions. [1] https://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/volumes/70/wr/mm7034e3.htm https://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/volumes/70/wr/mm7034e3.htm [2] https://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/acip/meetings/downloads/slides-2021-08-13/04-COVID-Scobie-508.pdf https://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/acip/meetings/downloads/slides-... [3] https://www.cdc.gov/library/covid19/08132021_covidupdate.html https://www.cdc.gov/library/covid19/08132021_covidupdate.htm... [4] Risk of rapid evolutionary escape from biomedical interventions targeting SARS-CoV-2 spike protein https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/33909660/ https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/33909660/ [5] Can we predict the limits of SARS-CoV-2 variants and their phenotypic consequences? https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/long-term-evolution-of-sars-cov-2-26-july-2021 https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/long-term-evoluti... [6] The impact of COVID-19 nonpharmaceutical interventions on the future dynamics of endemic infections https://www.pnas.org/content/117/48/30547 https://www.pnas.org/content/117/48/30547

eecc 5y ago
Only 66% of Israelis are fully vaccinated: there's a good 3 million hard-core religious orthodox who won't let science interfere with their deity's will. 3 million of blissfully and deliberately ignorant individuals who won't adapt their social behavior to avoid viral spread is more than enough to overrun any health system.
- walterbell 5y ago

nazgulnarsil 5y ago

For people in a similar situation. Chanca Piedra might help.

loceng 5y ago

How about also starting mass campaign to get people healthy and taking appropriate supplements - using carrots where necessary?

cryptonector 5y ago

Hospitals are always full. Like any business, they mean to run at close to capacity. Capacity here has more to do with staffing than actual rooms, beds, or equipment.