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Yes, and many of those people are scientists. Skepticism is (or should be) a normal part of the scientific method. Controls and reproducible results need to h

Yes, and many of those people are scientists. Skepticism is (or should be) a normal part of the scientific method. Controls and reproducible results need to happen before results can be considered conclusive. I understand that sometimes this is impossible in climate science. Climate change is a fact. Humans being responsible for increasing CO2 levels is a fact. Whether the consequences of raising CO2 levels will be more detrimental than beneficial is yet to be seen. There is little that the western world can do to slow CO2 emission growth. Raising taxes doesn't accomplish much. Also, accurate observations of Greenland (present day and historical) are available here: http://polarportal.dk/en/greenland/surface-conditions/ http://polarportal.dk/en/greenland/surface-conditions/

gamegoblin 5y ago
Even setting aside warming affects of CO2, it’s well-understood that increasing atmospheric carbon leads to ocean acidification which is much more inarguably a massive net negative.
- anonymousiam 5y ago
  Perhaps, but perhaps not. In the history of the Earth, CO2 levels have been significantly higher for a much longer time. (See here: https://earth.org/data_visualization/a-brief-history-of-co2/ https://earth.org/data_visualization/a-brief-history-of-co2/ and note that the time-line is on a log scale.) Worst-case projections show that at our present CO2 growth rate, things will get bad rather quickly, but keep in mind that the Earth's climate cycles have many (not well understood) self-regulation systems. Increased atmospheric CO2 may lead to explosive vegetation growth which may lead to increased carbon sequestration.
  - gamegoblin 5y ago
    CO2 has historically been higher, but life on earth, and ocean life in particular, was completely different that what we have today. The rate of ocean acidification is such that species do not have millennia to evolve to handle increased CO2 levels and are experiencing massive die-offs. An extremely well-understood effect is that ocean acidification thins the shells of shellfish. This may seem like a minor effect, but rapidly upsetting the food chain of the ocean seems like an absurdly risky experiment to run on the planet we inhabit.
  - space_fountain 5y ago
    So obviously the most apocalyptic predictions are wrong. Life on planet earth can and will survive this. My view is life on planet earth can survive most things we're capable of throwing at it, but the question isn't will we sterilize the planet. The questions is will it be a bad time for humans and yeah rapidly changing the composition of the ocean will be bad for humans. How bad I don't know, but pretty clearly bad
    - fancifalmanima 5y ago
      Even if all the changes that were happening were entirely natural, there's an argument to be made that we know we do well in the conditions that existed during industrialization, and that we should try to maintain the environment within those bands. If we knew the globe was heading into an ice age naturally, for example, I don't know that I'd be against trying to prevent that. I don't want mass starvation, etc.
  - ptkd 5y ago
    Perhaps not? You clearly are not well versed on climate change. To take something that is already happening and is very bad: massive yearly wildfires in California. I grew up in Washington, and NEVER had a “smoky summer”. Now it’s a yearly occurrence. It’s at best naive and at worse actively evil to be promoting this “oh it might actually be fine” narrative
  - fsflover 5y ago
    > In the history of the Earth, CO2 levels have been significantly higher for a much longer time. https://xkcd.com/1732/ https://xkcd.com/1732/
    - irrational 5y ago
      That xkcd comic doesn’t seem to be showing what you seem to think it is showing. And back when CO2 levels were higher, how many humans were around? Fortunately none.
      - fsflover 5y ago
        It shows that the changes were never as fast as now and still could be dangerous if humans were there.
  - freemint 5y ago
    Yeah but these levels have never changed so fast without an mass extinction. Nobody claims it will end life on earth. It might just end life as we know it as a species given we never hunted dinosaurs. > Increased atmospheric CO2 may lead to explosive vegetation growth which may lead to increased carbon sequestration. To my understanding this is decently modelled in long term climate simulations. Plants won't save us and the increased absorption rate of plants with higher CO2 levels is well studied in the lab and accounted for.
    - anonymousiam 5y ago
      Note that these are the same simulations that cannot accurately predict future climate based on past/present conditions. At present there is no model in use that can predict current conditions from past data. It's shameful that government policy makers are relying on this junk.
adamrezich 5y ago
skepticism is now wrongthink. either you believe what you're told (even if it contradicts what you were told yesterday), or you're a "conspiracy theorist." healthy skepticism is no longer considered a virtue in popular culture, it's either join the consensus or shut the fuck up. pretty sad state of affairs.
- ptkd 5y ago
  I mean on some level i agree with you, but since skepticism about climate change is likely leading to a massive humanitarian crisis it’s pretty reasonable for people to be angry at those who say “well actually according to MY research…” when there is such an overwhelming body of evidence pointing to disastrous climate change consequences.
- namuol 5y ago
  You're exaggerating. Skepticism is is a multi dimensional spectrum. Certain flavors of "skepticism" have been abused and, well, society has shifted its trust accordingly.
- shkkmo 5y ago
  Don't confuse intellectual contrarianism with true skepticism. a lot of people claiming to be engaged in the later are really just adherents to the former. A true skeptic applies that skepticism as equally to their own beliefs and to frings beliefs as they do to popular or widely accepted beliefs.
  - adamrezich 5y ago
    is there any difference between "intellectual contrarianism" and "true skepticism" aside from whether or not you agree with the conclusions being reached (or perhaps the questions being asked)?
    - jfengel 5y ago
      The difference is intellectual honesty. If you're truly willing to consider the evidence, and not just seek out things to reinforce your pre-existing conclusion, then you can be skeptical. Otherwise you're just contrarian. The problem is that if somebody is dishonest, there's no way to convince them that they're being dishonest. Either they know it, and refuse to admit it, or they're so dishonest that they've completely lost track of what it means to objectively evaluate evidence. So it's the kind of thing that experts in the domain will all be able to discern, while those same experts will be thought of as conspirators by the contrarian (and reinforced by their equally non-expert circle of trusted acquaintances). About the only hope you have at that point is noticing when the conspiracy is so large that it's simply not reasonable to expect it to persist. But since they get reinforcement from their large circle of non-experts, they usually conclude that the same logic applies both ways.
yongjik 5y ago
> Whether the consequences of raising CO2 levels will be more detrimental than beneficial is yet to be seen. Yet, propose something like a $50B government program for renewable energy, and these same people will be up in arms, totally confident in their prediction that it will lead to corruption, unemployment, suffering of the poor, and end of personal freedom. It's frankly amazing.

gamegoblin 5y ago

Even setting aside warming affects of CO2, it’s well-understood that increasing atmospheric carbon leads to ocean acidification which is much more inarguably a massive net negative.

anonymousiam 5y ago
Perhaps, but perhaps not. In the history of the Earth, CO2 levels have been significantly higher for a much longer time. (See here: https://earth.org/data_visualization/a-brief-history-of-co2/ https://earth.org/data_visualization/a-brief-history-of-co2/ and note that the time-line is on a log scale.) Worst-case projections show that at our present CO2 growth rate, things will get bad rather quickly, but keep in mind that the Earth's climate cycles have many (not well understood) self-regulation systems. Increased atmospheric CO2 may lead to explosive vegetation growth which may lead to increased carbon sequestration.
- gamegoblin 5y ago
  CO2 has historically been higher, but life on earth, and ocean life in particular, was completely different that what we have today. The rate of ocean acidification is such that species do not have millennia to evolve to handle increased CO2 levels and are experiencing massive die-offs. An extremely well-understood effect is that ocean acidification thins the shells of shellfish. This may seem like a minor effect, but rapidly upsetting the food chain of the ocean seems like an absurdly risky experiment to run on the planet we inhabit.
- space_fountain 5y ago
  So obviously the most apocalyptic predictions are wrong. Life on planet earth can and will survive this. My view is life on planet earth can survive most things we're capable of throwing at it, but the question isn't will we sterilize the planet. The questions is will it be a bad time for humans and yeah rapidly changing the composition of the ocean will be bad for humans. How bad I don't know, but pretty clearly bad
  - fancifalmanima 5y ago
    Even if all the changes that were happening were entirely natural, there's an argument to be made that we know we do well in the conditions that existed during industrialization, and that we should try to maintain the environment within those bands. If we knew the globe was heading into an ice age naturally, for example, I don't know that I'd be against trying to prevent that. I don't want mass starvation, etc.
- ptkd 5y ago
  Perhaps not? You clearly are not well versed on climate change. To take something that is already happening and is very bad: massive yearly wildfires in California. I grew up in Washington, and NEVER had a “smoky summer”. Now it’s a yearly occurrence. It’s at best naive and at worse actively evil to be promoting this “oh it might actually be fine” narrative
- fsflover 5y ago
  > In the history of the Earth, CO2 levels have been significantly higher for a much longer time. https://xkcd.com/1732/ https://xkcd.com/1732/
  - irrational 5y ago
    That xkcd comic doesn’t seem to be showing what you seem to think it is showing. And back when CO2 levels were higher, how many humans were around? Fortunately none.
    - fsflover 5y ago
      It shows that the changes were never as fast as now and still could be dangerous if humans were there.
- freemint 5y ago
  Yeah but these levels have never changed so fast without an mass extinction. Nobody claims it will end life on earth. It might just end life as we know it as a species given we never hunted dinosaurs. > Increased atmospheric CO2 may lead to explosive vegetation growth which may lead to increased carbon sequestration. To my understanding this is decently modelled in long term climate simulations. Plants won't save us and the increased absorption rate of plants with higher CO2 levels is well studied in the lab and accounted for.
  - anonymousiam 5y ago
    Note that these are the same simulations that cannot accurately predict future climate based on past/present conditions. At present there is no model in use that can predict current conditions from past data. It's shameful that government policy makers are relying on this junk.

adamrezich 5y ago

skepticism is now wrongthink. either you believe what you're told (even if it contradicts what you were told yesterday), or you're a "conspiracy theorist." healthy skepticism is no longer considered a virtue in popular culture, it's either join the consensus or shut the fuck up. pretty sad state of affairs.

ptkd 5y ago
I mean on some level i agree with you, but since skepticism about climate change is likely leading to a massive humanitarian crisis it’s pretty reasonable for people to be angry at those who say “well actually according to MY research…” when there is such an overwhelming body of evidence pointing to disastrous climate change consequences.
namuol 5y ago
You're exaggerating. Skepticism is is a multi dimensional spectrum. Certain flavors of "skepticism" have been abused and, well, society has shifted its trust accordingly.
shkkmo 5y ago
Don't confuse intellectual contrarianism with true skepticism. a lot of people claiming to be engaged in the later are really just adherents to the former. A true skeptic applies that skepticism as equally to their own beliefs and to frings beliefs as they do to popular or widely accepted beliefs.
- adamrezich 5y ago
  is there any difference between "intellectual contrarianism" and "true skepticism" aside from whether or not you agree with the conclusions being reached (or perhaps the questions being asked)?
  - jfengel 5y ago
    The difference is intellectual honesty. If you're truly willing to consider the evidence, and not just seek out things to reinforce your pre-existing conclusion, then you can be skeptical. Otherwise you're just contrarian. The problem is that if somebody is dishonest, there's no way to convince them that they're being dishonest. Either they know it, and refuse to admit it, or they're so dishonest that they've completely lost track of what it means to objectively evaluate evidence. So it's the kind of thing that experts in the domain will all be able to discern, while those same experts will be thought of as conspirators by the contrarian (and reinforced by their equally non-expert circle of trusted acquaintances). About the only hope you have at that point is noticing when the conspiracy is so large that it's simply not reasonable to expect it to persist. But since they get reinforcement from their large circle of non-experts, they usually conclude that the same logic applies both ways.

yongjik 5y ago

> Whether the consequences of raising CO2 levels will be more detrimental than beneficial is yet to be seen. Yet, propose something like a $50B government program for renewable energy, and these same people will be up in arms, totally confident in their prediction that it will lead to corruption, unemployment, suffering of the poor, and end of personal freedom. It's frankly amazing.