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It’s worth reading the article. The standard being referenced here is whether to file charges of organized criminal conspiracy a la racketeering. That has a hig

It’s worth reading the article. The standard being referenced here is whether to file charges of organized criminal conspiracy a la racketeering. That has a high standard of proof, far higher than the typical colloquial use of the word “coordinated.” Hilariously, the article describes the rally before the attack as “nearby,” as though it was a coincidence or something. When in fact the speakers at the rally enraged the audience and then told them to go to the Capitol.

moate 5y ago
"you have five percent, maybe, of these militia groups that were more closely organized" Dozens of people were charges with conspiracy. What percentage of a mob does it take to steer the mob? I don't think anyone should be taking much of a victory lap on this unless the thing you were opposing was the idea that everyone came to the capitol that day to burn the place to the ground. I think it's been pretty clear for months that that wasn't the case. People came to the capitol to listen to a political speech and express their outrage with the outcome of the election. And "about 5%" of them came to the capitol to try and start a riot...
throwawaysea 5y ago
> When in fact the speakers at the rally enraged the audience and then told them to go to the Capitol. Trump didn’t ask them to break laws, or trespass, or whatever else. You can look at the transcript of the rally if you want to seek the truth (https://www.usnews.com/news/politics/articles/2021-01-13/transcript-of-trumps-speech-at-rally-before-us-capitol-riot https://www.usnews.com/news/politics/articles/2021-01-13/tra...). Here’s the relevant line: > “I know that everyone here will soon be marching over to the Capitol building to peacefully and patriotically make your voices heard.” Thousands marched over the Capitol and protested outside, peacefully. A smaller number of less than 500 breached the barriers and continued the protest - this isn’t the first time a protest took place on Capitol grounds, but all the other such incidents seem to be from leftist activists and received little coverage. Only a much smaller number of people on January 6th took part in property damage or other crimes. If Trump spoke to a crowd of nearly 10000 and only a very small number took part in rioting, how can it be claimed that he incited anything? How can it be claimed that he tried to take over the government? Biased journalists have casually used words like “incitement”, “coup”, and “insurrection” to great effect but January 6th involved none of those things. Even the few people who were part of a group didn’t bring weapons, and purposefully left them elsewhere. This article notes that almost everyone was there as a one-off individual acting on their own. Clearly no group had any designs on capturing the US government, because that would be an absurd undertaking.
- ceejayoz 5y ago
  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Will_no_one_rid_me_of_this_turbulent_priest%3F https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Will_no_one_rid_me_of_this_tur... > While the quote was not expressed as an order, it prompted four knights to travel from Normandy to Canterbury, where they killed Becket. The phrase is commonly used in modern-day contexts to express that a ruler's wish may be interpreted as a command by his or her subordinates. "You will have an illegitimate president. That’s what you’ll have. And we can’t let that happen."
  - hncurious 5y ago
    Politicians constantly use that kind of hyperbolic rhetoric to rally their base to increase engagement, protest, make noise, vote. It doesn't mean it's some hidden code or message to their followers to go outside the bounds of the democratic process. That's tinfoil hat level thinking.
    - ceejayoz 5y ago
      > It doesn't mean it's some hidden code or message to their followers to go outside the bounds of the democratic process. His speech explicitly demands the Vice President of the United States reject the election results.
      - AnimalMuppet 5y ago
        That's a demand to the vice president, not to the people at the rally.
        ceejayoz 5y ago
        He's demanding the VP do something "outside the bounds of the democratic process". He's laying out the national-level horrors that ensue if the VP does not. Stolen election, illegitimate President. He's saying those horrors can't be allowed to happen. We convict mob bosses for murder on less explicit statements than this.
forgingahead 5y ago
When in fact the speakers at the rally enraged the audience and then told them to go to the Capitol. Per the WaPo timeline, the protestors were already outside the Capitol at 12.40pm, whereas the speech didn't finish until 1.11pm. https://www.washingtonpost.com/nation/interactive/2021/capitol-insurrection-visual-timeline/ https://www.washingtonpost.com/nation/interactive/2021/capit... It's also a 35 minute walk from the Ellipse (where the speech was) to the Capitol. If you're in a crowd, that ostensibly would take longer as people move more slowly. People were and are certainly angry, but besides the high standard of criminal conspiracy, people who were going to go to the Capitol were going to do so regardless of who or what was said at the rally.
- snowwrestler 5y ago
  I’m not saying the rally was the only cause, I’m saying it’s silly to phrase a description of the rally as if it were an unrelated event. It was related.

moate 5y ago

"you have five percent, maybe, of these militia groups that were more closely organized" Dozens of people were charges with conspiracy. What percentage of a mob does it take to steer the mob? I don't think anyone should be taking much of a victory lap on this unless the thing you were opposing was the idea that everyone came to the capitol that day to burn the place to the ground. I think it's been pretty clear for months that that wasn't the case. People came to the capitol to listen to a political speech and express their outrage with the outcome of the election. And "about 5%" of them came to the capitol to try and start a riot...

throwawaysea 5y ago

> When in fact the speakers at the rally enraged the audience and then told them to go to the Capitol. Trump didn’t ask them to break laws, or trespass, or whatever else. You can look at the transcript of the rally if you want to seek the truth (https://www.usnews.com/news/politics/articles/2021-01-13/transcript-of-trumps-speech-at-rally-before-us-capitol-riot https://www.usnews.com/news/politics/articles/2021-01-13/tra...). Here’s the relevant line: > “I know that everyone here will soon be marching over to the Capitol building to peacefully and patriotically make your voices heard.” Thousands marched over the Capitol and protested outside, peacefully. A smaller number of less than 500 breached the barriers and continued the protest - this isn’t the first time a protest took place on Capitol grounds, but all the other such incidents seem to be from leftist activists and received little coverage. Only a much smaller number of people on January 6th took part in property damage or other crimes. If Trump spoke to a crowd of nearly 10000 and only a very small number took part in rioting, how can it be claimed that he incited anything? How can it be claimed that he tried to take over the government? Biased journalists have casually used words like “incitement”, “coup”, and “insurrection” to great effect but January 6th involved none of those things. Even the few people who were part of a group didn’t bring weapons, and purposefully left them elsewhere. This article notes that almost everyone was there as a one-off individual acting on their own. Clearly no group had any designs on capturing the US government, because that would be an absurd undertaking.

ceejayoz 5y ago
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Will_no_one_rid_me_of_this_turbulent_priest%3F https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Will_no_one_rid_me_of_this_tur... > While the quote was not expressed as an order, it prompted four knights to travel from Normandy to Canterbury, where they killed Becket. The phrase is commonly used in modern-day contexts to express that a ruler's wish may be interpreted as a command by his or her subordinates. "You will have an illegitimate president. That’s what you’ll have. And we can’t let that happen."
- hncurious 5y ago
  Politicians constantly use that kind of hyperbolic rhetoric to rally their base to increase engagement, protest, make noise, vote. It doesn't mean it's some hidden code or message to their followers to go outside the bounds of the democratic process. That's tinfoil hat level thinking.
  - ceejayoz 5y ago
    > It doesn't mean it's some hidden code or message to their followers to go outside the bounds of the democratic process. His speech explicitly demands the Vice President of the United States reject the election results.
    - AnimalMuppet 5y ago
      That's a demand to the vice president, not to the people at the rally.
      - ceejayoz 5y ago
        He's demanding the VP do something "outside the bounds of the democratic process". He's laying out the national-level horrors that ensue if the VP does not. Stolen election, illegitimate President. He's saying those horrors can't be allowed to happen. We convict mob bosses for murder on less explicit statements than this.

forgingahead 5y ago

When in fact the speakers at the rally enraged the audience and then told them to go to the Capitol. Per the WaPo timeline, the protestors were already outside the Capitol at 12.40pm, whereas the speech didn't finish until 1.11pm. https://www.washingtonpost.com/nation/interactive/2021/capitol-insurrection-visual-timeline/ https://www.washingtonpost.com/nation/interactive/2021/capit... It's also a 35 minute walk from the Ellipse (where the speech was) to the Capitol. If you're in a crowd, that ostensibly would take longer as people move more slowly. People were and are certainly angry, but besides the high standard of criminal conspiracy, people who were going to go to the Capitol were going to do so regardless of who or what was said at the rally.

snowwrestler 5y ago
I’m not saying the rally was the only cause, I’m saying it’s silly to phrase a description of the rally as if it were an unrelated event. It was related.