4 ms·

Blame for incurring the wrath of the US? I don't think so. Sounds a bit like "stop hitting yourself" or "how dare you resist our CIA overthrow!" Maybe if this

Blame for incurring the wrath of the US? I don't think so. Sounds a bit like "stop hitting yourself" or "how dare you resist our CIA overthrow!" Maybe if this guy was on a terrorist list or something, but I as an American don't like being blamed for things my government does.

charonn0 5y ago
Are you suggesting that the Iranian government is blameless?
- boomboomsubban 5y ago
  If you punish individuals for the actions of their government, what punishment do you deserve? Should you suffer for every Iranian who loses their life because of US sanctions?
  - charonn0 5y ago
    That's not an answer.
    - boomboomsubban 5y ago
      They weren't suggesting that, the "blame" of the Iranian government is a separate thing.
      - charonn0 5y ago
        Yes they were, and no it's not.
        boomboomsubban 5y ago
        It's not what they were saying, they said so themselves, but if you think they're related then answer my question. Should you be punished for the actions of your government?
        charonn0 5y ago
        Of course not.
        boomboomsubban 5y ago
        Then why does the Iranian government deserve any of the blame for the US punishing Iranian citizens?
        charonn0 5y ago
        As far as I know there aren't any sanctions against individual Iranians. This might seem like splitting hairs, but since you're framing it as the US "punishing" individual Iranian citizens it's an important distinction to point out.
        boomboomsubban 5y ago
        Every individual citizen is getting punished. And "That's not an answer."
        charonn0 5y ago
        It's impossible to have a discussion if you insist on mischaracterizing sanctions.
        boomboomsubban 5y ago
        I am not mischaracterizing anything. There were no individual sanctions enacted against Ahmad Haghighi yet he individually was punished by the US sanctions.
- CrazyPyroLinux 5y ago
  I get the impression that you are trolling, but... I don't think the Iranian government is "blameless" in general. (If countries were individual people, all of them would be in jail, with most of them about to hang for war crimes.) But in the very specific context of embargoing software devs (versus weapons), I do think all of the blame for that is on countries on the imposing end of embargo. Big difference between "systemWMD" and actual WMDs. ;) The horribly broken crypto we all had to deal with in the 2000s was partially due to US trying to treat it like a "munition" and thus weakening everyone - even themselves - by the mere existence of the hobbled "export-grade" ciphers.
  - deleted 5y ago
    [deleted]
  - mcguire 5y ago
    Do you feel the same way about the economic sanctions against South Africa (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comprehensive_Anti-Apartheid_Act https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comprehensive_Anti-Apartheid_A...)?
    - CrazyPyroLinux 5y ago
      I do. And Cuba, and North Korea, and wherever else. "If soldiers are not to cross international boundaries on missions of war, goods must cross them on missions of peace." - Mallery, Economic Union and Durable Peace Thus, embargoes are acts of war. Also, as evidenced by this very article, they don't tend to have the desired effect on their targets anyway, instead largely affecting innocent people and especially those of lesser means.
bsza 5y ago
Exactly. American open source developers shouldn't be blamed for things the American government does.
- mcguire 5y ago
  Why? We're responsible for what our government does.
  - bsza 5y ago
    Collectively. Not on an individual basis. You can't blame Gordon Ramsay for Brexit either. That would be silly. And there wasn't even a referendum for the Iran sanctions AFAIK.

charonn0 5y ago

Are you suggesting that the Iranian government is blameless?

boomboomsubban 5y ago
If you punish individuals for the actions of their government, what punishment do you deserve? Should you suffer for every Iranian who loses their life because of US sanctions?
- charonn0 5y ago
  That's not an answer.
  - boomboomsubban 5y ago
    They weren't suggesting that, the "blame" of the Iranian government is a separate thing.
    - charonn0 5y ago
      Yes they were, and no it's not.
      - boomboomsubban 5y ago
        It's not what they were saying, they said so themselves, but if you think they're related then answer my question. Should you be punished for the actions of your government?
        charonn0 5y ago
        Of course not.
        boomboomsubban 5y ago
        Then why does the Iranian government deserve any of the blame for the US punishing Iranian citizens?
        charonn0 5y ago
        As far as I know there aren't any sanctions against individual Iranians. This might seem like splitting hairs, but since you're framing it as the US "punishing" individual Iranian citizens it's an important distinction to point out.
        boomboomsubban 5y ago
        Every individual citizen is getting punished. And "That's not an answer."
        charonn0 5y ago
        It's impossible to have a discussion if you insist on mischaracterizing sanctions.
        boomboomsubban 5y ago
        I am not mischaracterizing anything. There were no individual sanctions enacted against Ahmad Haghighi yet he individually was punished by the US sanctions.
CrazyPyroLinux 5y ago
I get the impression that you are trolling, but... I don't think the Iranian government is "blameless" in general. (If countries were individual people, all of them would be in jail, with most of them about to hang for war crimes.) But in the very specific context of embargoing software devs (versus weapons), I do think all of the blame for that is on countries on the imposing end of embargo. Big difference between "systemWMD" and actual WMDs. ;) The horribly broken crypto we all had to deal with in the 2000s was partially due to US trying to treat it like a "munition" and thus weakening everyone - even themselves - by the mere existence of the hobbled "export-grade" ciphers.
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
- mcguire 5y ago
  Do you feel the same way about the economic sanctions against South Africa (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comprehensive_Anti-Apartheid_Act https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comprehensive_Anti-Apartheid_A...)?
  - CrazyPyroLinux 5y ago
    I do. And Cuba, and North Korea, and wherever else. "If soldiers are not to cross international boundaries on missions of war, goods must cross them on missions of peace." - Mallery, Economic Union and Durable Peace Thus, embargoes are acts of war. Also, as evidenced by this very article, they don't tend to have the desired effect on their targets anyway, instead largely affecting innocent people and especially those of lesser means.

bsza 5y ago

Exactly. American open source developers shouldn't be blamed for things the American government does.

mcguire 5y ago
Why? We're responsible for what our government does.
- bsza 5y ago
  Collectively. Not on an individual basis. You can't blame Gordon Ramsay for Brexit either. That would be silly. And there wasn't even a referendum for the Iran sanctions AFAIK.