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Modern Civil Disobedience - Tim DeChristopher

176 points by justinmares 15y ago

justinmares 15y ago
This is a sad, sad commentary on the current state of government affairs. This is the kind of stuff that makes me think groups like Anonymous are more for the people than our own government
bugsy 15y ago
How often does someone get sent to prison for 2 years because they bid at an auction more than they could afford to pay at the moment they made the bid? Is it very common to prosecute this in a criminal trial, or is this completely unheard of?
- ryanpers 15y ago
  not so, he was able and willing to pay for the land, but the BLM doesnt allow people to buy land w/o drilling for oil. So he was charged with "disrupting a lawful government activity" - even though in fact those BLM auctions are NOT lawful.
  - yew 15y ago
    Could you provide some evidence for Mr DeChristopher's ability to acquire $1.8M in short order? The actual issue seems to have much more to do with the legality of the auction than with whether or not he honestly intended to purchase the land for development.
  - wisty 15y ago
    Using illegal methods to disrupt illegal activities is not legal. You can't shoot a guy to stop him running a red light. There are rules about Citizen's arrests, but they are pretty specific. On the other hand, making a nuisance bid at an auction (especially when you are forthright about your actions, which he claims he was) doesn't seem like a serious criminal act.
    - cube13 15y ago
      He didn't just make himself a nuisance, though. He did two illegal acts: 1. He misrepresented himself by saying that he was a legitimate buyer for the drilling rights. 2. He was unable to pay for the bids he won. Both of which are pretty cut and dry fraud charges. Those are what he was found guilty for. If he had just broken into the meeting and annoyed the people present, I would have a different opinion about his punishment, but what he did here was clearly illegal. If he's serious about this being a case of civil disobedience, he should accept the consequences of his actions. Trying to avoid the consequences just defeats the entire purpose.
      - dublinclontarf 15y ago
        Actually he COULD pay for the bids he won, he just wasn't intending to drill them.
      - brianleb 15y ago
        Tsk tsk, you didn't read the article. > 1. He misrepresented himself by saying that he was a legitimate buyer for the drilling rights. "The entire basis for the false statements charge that I was convicted of was the fact that I wrote my real name and address on a form that included the words “bona fide bidder.” When I sat there on the witness stand, Mr Romney asked me if I ever had any intention of being a bona fide bidder. I responded by asking Mr Romney to clarify what “bona fide bidder” meant in this context. Mr Romney then withdrew the question and moved on to the next subject. On that right there is the entire basis for the government’s repeated attacks on my integrity." > 2. He was unable to pay for the bids he won. "The other number suggested in the government’s memorandum is the $166,000 that was the total price of the three parcels I won which were not invalidated. Strangely, the government wants me to pay for these parcels, but has never offered to actually give them to me. When I offered the BLM the money a couple weeks after the auction, they refused to take it." > If he's serious about this being a case of civil disobedience, he should accept the consequences of his actions. Trying to avoid the consequences just defeats the entire purpose. "Despite my strong disagreements with the court about the Constitutional basis for the limits on my defense, while I was in this courtroom I respected the authority of the court. [...] disagreement with the law should not be confused with disrespect for the law." It's really a very good speech, you should read it in its entirety.
  - bugsy 15y ago
    Wow, thanks, I didn't realize he even had the money but the issue was that he wanted to buy the land without drilling on it and that was enough to got to prison for two years. That is pretty amazing.
    - sixtofour 15y ago
      Yeah, even though oil companies bid for drilling rights and then sit on those rights, don't drill, and bid for more rights.
dublinclontarf 15y ago
He was essentially being punished, made an example of for political reasons. I'm not an environmentalist, but thats not right.
- redthrowaway 15y ago
  Why aren't you an environmentalist? I'm not suggesting it's the only philosophy one can legitimately hold, but I'm wondering where your disagreement with the core tenets of environmentalism (sustainable growth and concern for human health and ecological balance) comes from.
  - dushan42 15y ago
    Can't speak for dublinclontarf, but personally I'm not too concerned for the environment simply because I'm fairly indifferent as to whether mankind makes it or not. The Universe has been doing quite well without us for billions of years and will continue to do so if we are too dumb to keep our little rock habitable (which I suspect may be the case). Oh and we're not planning to have kids :)
    - Cushman 15y ago
      Whether "mankind makes it" in the end matters or not, our not making it would involve millennia of avoidable human suffering. It's a little hard to care about anything without caring about that, which I think is what your parent was getting at.
      - dushan42 15y ago
        You are aware that mankind has subjected itself to avoidable suffering for as long as we could swing a stick, right? We have hundreds of millions suffering (avoidably might I add) right now and even if we somehow managed to keep Earth squeaky clean - I see a lot more avoidable suffering for the millennia to come. If anything, significantly reducing Earth's capacity to sustain humans may paradoxically result in diminished total human suffering (average suffering x number of humans) due to lower population. For what it's worth I do care, courtesy to my overly empathetic neural wiring. I'd argue that I am doing a lot more than my peers to reduce future human suffering simply by not contributing to the overpopulation. Not that any of it matters in the grand scheme of things ;) Keep fighting the good fight, I admire your zeal!
Kroem3r 15y ago
The decision, the process and the background are an embarrassment. It's interesting to me that there isn't even the slightest bit of damage control. What was it Lou Reed said ... Stick a fork in 'em. Turn 'em over. They're done.
vonSeckendorff 15y ago
I don't agree with everything DeChristopher has to say, but that was a good read. I find it really scary that lobbyists have the ability to destroy an individual's life if instigated. At least that's the impression I got.
- sixtofour 15y ago
  Money greases the wheels of justice. Oil money is particularly greasy. EDIT: spelling
eazolan 15y ago
I cared, up to paragraph 682 in his article.
brianleb 15y ago
This is an excellent read, although not initially recognizing his name I was expecting it to be about Anonymous/LulzSec, DDOS, digital sit-ins, etc. It is long, but extremely well constructed. It should also be taken as a lesson in how to respond to governmental oppression. Non-violent, not inflammatory, well reasoned, passionate, and maybe most important of all, not disrespectful of the law itself. By respecting to your opponent, it speaks volumes about your character. DeChristopher is obviously a well-spoken man and he sounds like an absolute stand-up guy. In his speech he seems to address every pertinent matter of the case, use the evidence available to question their validity, and to any sensible person defend himself completely and utterly. Unfortunately, court does not appear to have been sensible on this day. If we can see a silver lining, it's that this story will get more press because he's going to jail, and the more people that read this, the more people will be inspired. I think this essay will do exactly what DeChristopher wanted it to.
orbitingpluto 15y ago
This just smacks of corruption. Sweet legal corruption. He was in a position to be able to purchase the rights to drill. He does not have to necessarily have to exercise those rights that he purchased. Moreover, he is leasing those rights! It is in the governments best interests to have someone pay for the right to take a non-renewable resource and then not decide to use it!!! Since there is a lot of talk about patents and copyright here, let's do a simple example. If I purchase the rights to 'Happy Birthday', can't I just not enforce the copyright? Will I be prosecuted if I don't sue every child getting sung 'Happy Birthday'? If I purchase Lodsys' supposed patents and decide to not sue every indy developer out there, will I be persecuted for it? Sexual orientation? You've got the right either way! If you go princess or bear is the government going to break down your door? If you lease land for logging and your company decides it's not fiscally feasible to log this year, are you going to be thrown in jail. No. No. No. No. It's too bad his defense was hampered by the judge. His only crime was trying to get in the way of the revolving door system of public property being given away to private interests. That's a big no-no.
deleted 15y ago
[deleted]
davidryal 15y ago
I'm so glad this made HN.

176 points by justinmares 15y ago

This is a sad, sad commentary on the current state of government affairs. This is the kind of stuff that makes me think groups like Anonymous are more for the people than our own government

bugsy 15y ago

How often does someone get sent to prison for 2 years because they bid at an auction more than they could afford to pay at the moment they made the bid? Is it very common to prosecute this in a criminal trial, or is this completely unheard of?

ryanpers 15y ago
not so, he was able and willing to pay for the land, but the BLM doesnt allow people to buy land w/o drilling for oil. So he was charged with "disrupting a lawful government activity" - even though in fact those BLM auctions are NOT lawful.
- yew 15y ago
  Could you provide some evidence for Mr DeChristopher's ability to acquire $1.8M in short order? The actual issue seems to have much more to do with the legality of the auction than with whether or not he honestly intended to purchase the land for development.
- wisty 15y ago
  Using illegal methods to disrupt illegal activities is not legal. You can't shoot a guy to stop him running a red light. There are rules about Citizen's arrests, but they are pretty specific. On the other hand, making a nuisance bid at an auction (especially when you are forthright about your actions, which he claims he was) doesn't seem like a serious criminal act.
  - cube13 15y ago
    He didn't just make himself a nuisance, though. He did two illegal acts: 1. He misrepresented himself by saying that he was a legitimate buyer for the drilling rights. 2. He was unable to pay for the bids he won. Both of which are pretty cut and dry fraud charges. Those are what he was found guilty for. If he had just broken into the meeting and annoyed the people present, I would have a different opinion about his punishment, but what he did here was clearly illegal. If he's serious about this being a case of civil disobedience, he should accept the consequences of his actions. Trying to avoid the consequences just defeats the entire purpose.
    - dublinclontarf 15y ago
      Actually he COULD pay for the bids he won, he just wasn't intending to drill them.
    - brianleb 15y ago
      Tsk tsk, you didn't read the article. > 1. He misrepresented himself by saying that he was a legitimate buyer for the drilling rights. "The entire basis for the false statements charge that I was convicted of was the fact that I wrote my real name and address on a form that included the words “bona fide bidder.” When I sat there on the witness stand, Mr Romney asked me if I ever had any intention of being a bona fide bidder. I responded by asking Mr Romney to clarify what “bona fide bidder” meant in this context. Mr Romney then withdrew the question and moved on to the next subject. On that right there is the entire basis for the government’s repeated attacks on my integrity." > 2. He was unable to pay for the bids he won. "The other number suggested in the government’s memorandum is the $166,000 that was the total price of the three parcels I won which were not invalidated. Strangely, the government wants me to pay for these parcels, but has never offered to actually give them to me. When I offered the BLM the money a couple weeks after the auction, they refused to take it." > If he's serious about this being a case of civil disobedience, he should accept the consequences of his actions. Trying to avoid the consequences just defeats the entire purpose. "Despite my strong disagreements with the court about the Constitutional basis for the limits on my defense, while I was in this courtroom I respected the authority of the court. [...] disagreement with the law should not be confused with disrespect for the law." It's really a very good speech, you should read it in its entirety.
- bugsy 15y ago
  Wow, thanks, I didn't realize he even had the money but the issue was that he wanted to buy the land without drilling on it and that was enough to got to prison for two years. That is pretty amazing.
  - sixtofour 15y ago
    Yeah, even though oil companies bid for drilling rights and then sit on those rights, don't drill, and bid for more rights.

dublinclontarf 15y ago

He was essentially being punished, made an example of for political reasons. I'm not an environmentalist, but thats not right.

redthrowaway 15y ago
Why aren't you an environmentalist? I'm not suggesting it's the only philosophy one can legitimately hold, but I'm wondering where your disagreement with the core tenets of environmentalism (sustainable growth and concern for human health and ecological balance) comes from.
- dushan42 15y ago
  Can't speak for dublinclontarf, but personally I'm not too concerned for the environment simply because I'm fairly indifferent as to whether mankind makes it or not. The Universe has been doing quite well without us for billions of years and will continue to do so if we are too dumb to keep our little rock habitable (which I suspect may be the case). Oh and we're not planning to have kids :)
  - Cushman 15y ago
    Whether "mankind makes it" in the end matters or not, our not making it would involve millennia of avoidable human suffering. It's a little hard to care about anything without caring about that, which I think is what your parent was getting at.
    - dushan42 15y ago
      You are aware that mankind has subjected itself to avoidable suffering for as long as we could swing a stick, right? We have hundreds of millions suffering (avoidably might I add) right now and even if we somehow managed to keep Earth squeaky clean - I see a lot more avoidable suffering for the millennia to come. If anything, significantly reducing Earth's capacity to sustain humans may paradoxically result in diminished total human suffering (average suffering x number of humans) due to lower population. For what it's worth I do care, courtesy to my overly empathetic neural wiring. I'd argue that I am doing a lot more than my peers to reduce future human suffering simply by not contributing to the overpopulation. Not that any of it matters in the grand scheme of things ;) Keep fighting the good fight, I admire your zeal!

Kroem3r 15y ago

The decision, the process and the background are an embarrassment. It's interesting to me that there isn't even the slightest bit of damage control. What was it Lou Reed said ... Stick a fork in 'em. Turn 'em over. They're done.

vonSeckendorff 15y ago

I don't agree with everything DeChristopher has to say, but that was a good read. I find it really scary that lobbyists have the ability to destroy an individual's life if instigated. At least that's the impression I got.

sixtofour 15y ago
Money greases the wheels of justice. Oil money is particularly greasy. EDIT: spelling

eazolan 15y ago

I cared, up to paragraph 682 in his article.

brianleb 15y ago

This is an excellent read, although not initially recognizing his name I was expecting it to be about Anonymous/LulzSec, DDOS, digital sit-ins, etc. It is long, but extremely well constructed. It should also be taken as a lesson in how to respond to governmental oppression. Non-violent, not inflammatory, well reasoned, passionate, and maybe most important of all, not disrespectful of the law itself. By respecting to your opponent, it speaks volumes about your character. DeChristopher is obviously a well-spoken man and he sounds like an absolute stand-up guy. In his speech he seems to address every pertinent matter of the case, use the evidence available to question their validity, and to any sensible person defend himself completely and utterly. Unfortunately, court does not appear to have been sensible on this day. If we can see a silver lining, it's that this story will get more press because he's going to jail, and the more people that read this, the more people will be inspired. I think this essay will do exactly what DeChristopher wanted it to.

orbitingpluto 15y ago

This just smacks of corruption. Sweet legal corruption. He was in a position to be able to purchase the rights to drill. He does not have to necessarily have to exercise those rights that he purchased. Moreover, he is leasing those rights! It is in the governments best interests to have someone pay for the right to take a non-renewable resource and then not decide to use it!!! Since there is a lot of talk about patents and copyright here, let's do a simple example. If I purchase the rights to 'Happy Birthday', can't I just not enforce the copyright? Will I be prosecuted if I don't sue every child getting sung 'Happy Birthday'? If I purchase Lodsys' supposed patents and decide to not sue every indy developer out there, will I be persecuted for it? Sexual orientation? You've got the right either way! If you go princess or bear is the government going to break down your door? If you lease land for logging and your company decides it's not fiscally feasible to log this year, are you going to be thrown in jail. No. No. No. No. It's too bad his defense was hampered by the judge. His only crime was trying to get in the way of the revolving door system of public property being given away to private interests. That's a big no-no.

deleted 15y ago

[deleted]

davidryal 15y ago

I'm so glad this made HN.