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I'm skeptical but, one source says this was "debunked" in Sep 2019: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5yyJiz4K9gY https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5yyJiz4K9gY The

I'm skeptical but, one source says this was "debunked" in Sep 2019: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5yyJiz4K9gY https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5yyJiz4K9gY They point out that these rideshare apps can detect what your phone's battery % is, and the TOS says they may access that info. To test the allegation, they used two phones with different battery levels and compared the prices (at the same time, & with same destination), but did not find pricing differences. They reached out to Uber who made a statement: > Uber does not use personalized pricing nor is battery life a factor in determining fares. Pricing is optimized for the network as a whole, not any one individual rider or driver. [1] Here is the reference Uber provided which describes how prices are set, and how other marketplace functionality works. [2] [1] https://www.wkyc.com/article/news/verify/verify-does-uber-charge-you-more-if-your-battery-is-low/507-3b1c0166-0d82-4f91-9d96-c4aa01921b12 https://www.wkyc.com/article/news/verify/verify-does-uber-ch... [2] https://www.uber.com/us/en/marketplace/ https://www.uber.com/us/en/marketplace/

deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
LatteLazy 5y ago
Thanks for your excellent comment!
PragmaticPulp 5y ago
If Uber was tripling prices when the battery level fell below 20% (like this Tweet) then more people would have noticed it by now. I think this is an obvious case of someone attributing market-rate fluctuations to the only metric they can personally see with their own eyes: Their battery level. They can’t see Uber’s network of available drivers and other factors that influence the rate, so they overweight the only data point they can see. This is similar to the phenomenon where people have a verbal discussion about a topic and then coincidentally see an ad for that product in an app later. When we see 10s or 100s of ads per day, it’s inevitable they we’ll randomly see an ad for something we’ve been discussing. Yet some people see these coincidences and wrongly conclude that their phones are listening to their every word, using AI to parse it out (without draining their battery), and then sending those keywords to an ad server for targeting. It has been debunked many times over but it’s still a commonly held belief that all of your phone apps are listening to your conversations. It can be difficult to convince some people that coincidences are really just coincidences. Especially in this era where Big Tech has an incredible evil reputation in the journalism and media we consume.
- FDSGSG 5y ago
  This is similar to the incredibly common meme that Instagram and other social media apps are secretly using the microphone to spy on you for advertising purposes. Most people are just stupid, nothing new here.
  - hkt 5y ago
    And yet after a whatsapp call I'll be advertised things I'd never mentioned by any other medium. It is striking.
    - vntok 5y ago
      Nah. You think that you have never mentioned or searched those things, but in reality you're just starting to recognize them as soon as your call ends because your brain has been primed to pay more attention. This is the same phenomenon as driving with other people and suddenly asking out loud "Hey let's find such or such type of car". Whatever the make (within reason), you'll probably start finding out a bunch of them. That's because you start paying attention, of course, not because there's suddenly a surge of people driving them at the exact time you're looking for them.
    - puszczyk 5y ago
      WhatsApp call are end-to-end encrypted. Do you think they aren’t? (All, only yours?)
    - natch 5y ago
      There are other ways to accomplish that without a microphone. Hint: there was another party on your call other than yourself, and their behavior (on the web for example, where you may be linked as friends on the same social media sites) can provide signals you are unaware of, that suggest things about their friends including you.
    - FDSGSG 5y ago
      This should be easy to prove by reverse engineering the WhatsApp application. If someone could come up with proof of this, they'd probably be set for life in one way or another. Perhaps they could monetize the information by collaborating with short-sellers, or simply kickstart a career using the massive media attention.
Puts 5y ago
And it was at that time they got the idea to actually do it! :D
awinter-py 5y ago
I mean they were greyballing city employees in some cities -- I don't know if that's 'personal pricing' but it's certainly an adversarial personalization feature VW during dieselgate had the ability to detect the testbench. I might build this here if I were concerned about getting caught. Uber built a remote kill switch for their tax docs in canada, this isn't unprecedented for them. also nobody denies location is used to personalize pricing, so wtf are they talking about. customizing the user's experience based on location is 100% personalization? the problem here is less the accusation than the total lack of price transparency + accountability on these markets
- BenTheElder 5y ago
  > Uber built a remote kill switch for their tax docs in canada, this isn't unprecedented for them. Do you have a pointer to more on this? Naive searching doesn't seem to turn up anything for me.
  - awinter-py 5y ago
    it's their 'ripley' system https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2018/jan/11/uber-developed-secret-system-to-lock-down-staff-computers-in-a-police-raid https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2018/jan/11/uber-deve... https://www.bloomberg.com/opinion/articles/2018-01-12/uber-looks-great-when-the-police-barge-in https://www.bloomberg.com/opinion/articles/2018-01-12/uber-l...
    - BenTheElder 5y ago
      Thanks!
- PragmaticPulp 5y ago
  > also nobody denies location is used to personalize pricing Why would anyone be surprised that location is a factor for a ride service? Location and availability of drivers are basically the two main inputs. The service wouldn’t make much sense if they didn’t consider location of your start and finish points when pricing rides. This isn’t some nefarious scheme.
fouric 5y ago
> To test the allegation, they used two phones with different battery levels n=2 is only very slightly better than n=1, and still nothing close to a "debunking". Neither the original claim in the tweet nor the alleged debunking provide anything substantial, and nobody should be claiming anything until they do something at least semi-rigorous (n>10, control group, actual sampling of Uber prices and then statistical analysis). I couldn't do this, as none of the people in my friend circle have the Uber app, but I'm not in SV - seems like there should be a few HN denizens who could pull off something like this relatively easily and put the question to rest.
- criticaltinker 5y ago
  > nobody should be claiming anything until they do something at least semi-rigorous (n>10, control group, actual sampling of Uber prices and then statistical analysis) Couldn't agree more - right now all we have is very weak and inconclusive evidence. If someone is able to confirm this allegation, it would make for a big story and potential lawsuit, especially since Uber has been publicly and categorically denying the claim for at least 5 years.
1024core 5y ago
Then how do you explain this? https://twitter.com/eightyknots/status/1428251471087169536 https://twitter.com/eightyknots/status/1428251471087169536
- criticaltinker 5y ago
  "taken 10 minutes apart" - a rigorous proof of the claim would need to evaluate pricing at the same moment in time for two different battery percentages.
  - 1024core 5y ago
    Unfortunately, the technology to instantly charge your phone within milliseconds does not exist yet.
    - deleted 5y ago
      [deleted]
- ryanlol 5y ago
  step 1) wait for surge pricing step 2) plug phone into charger step 3) wait until surge pricing ends Seems easy enough to explain.
Spooky23 5y ago
Wasn’t Uber the company that would manipulate pricing if you were looking for a ride in front of the local government taxing authority? Obviously the capability to do shady shit exists.
tantalor 5y ago
> they used two phones That is different than what is being alleged here, where it is different battery levels on one phone. Apples & oranges. The proper test would have been to fake the battery level with debug settings.
DeadlockAsync 5y ago
It isn't beneath them to use dark patterns, they already do that in real life with their wages/practices. Realistically I think it'd be pretty difficult to test this from the outside and get definitive answers. If they implemented something this scummy they'd surely implement some safeguards to make it harder to prove they're doing it, similar to the VW Diesel Emissions scandal.

deleted 5y ago

[deleted]

LatteLazy 5y ago

Thanks for your excellent comment!

PragmaticPulp 5y ago

If Uber was tripling prices when the battery level fell below 20% (like this Tweet) then more people would have noticed it by now. I think this is an obvious case of someone attributing market-rate fluctuations to the only metric they can personally see with their own eyes: Their battery level. They can’t see Uber’s network of available drivers and other factors that influence the rate, so they overweight the only data point they can see. This is similar to the phenomenon where people have a verbal discussion about a topic and then coincidentally see an ad for that product in an app later. When we see 10s or 100s of ads per day, it’s inevitable they we’ll randomly see an ad for something we’ve been discussing. Yet some people see these coincidences and wrongly conclude that their phones are listening to their every word, using AI to parse it out (without draining their battery), and then sending those keywords to an ad server for targeting. It has been debunked many times over but it’s still a commonly held belief that all of your phone apps are listening to your conversations. It can be difficult to convince some people that coincidences are really just coincidences. Especially in this era where Big Tech has an incredible evil reputation in the journalism and media we consume.

FDSGSG 5y ago
This is similar to the incredibly common meme that Instagram and other social media apps are secretly using the microphone to spy on you for advertising purposes. Most people are just stupid, nothing new here.
- hkt 5y ago
  And yet after a whatsapp call I'll be advertised things I'd never mentioned by any other medium. It is striking.
  - vntok 5y ago
    Nah. You think that you have never mentioned or searched those things, but in reality you're just starting to recognize them as soon as your call ends because your brain has been primed to pay more attention. This is the same phenomenon as driving with other people and suddenly asking out loud "Hey let's find such or such type of car". Whatever the make (within reason), you'll probably start finding out a bunch of them. That's because you start paying attention, of course, not because there's suddenly a surge of people driving them at the exact time you're looking for them.
  - puszczyk 5y ago
    WhatsApp call are end-to-end encrypted. Do you think they aren’t? (All, only yours?)
  - natch 5y ago
    There are other ways to accomplish that without a microphone. Hint: there was another party on your call other than yourself, and their behavior (on the web for example, where you may be linked as friends on the same social media sites) can provide signals you are unaware of, that suggest things about their friends including you.
  - FDSGSG 5y ago
    This should be easy to prove by reverse engineering the WhatsApp application. If someone could come up with proof of this, they'd probably be set for life in one way or another. Perhaps they could monetize the information by collaborating with short-sellers, or simply kickstart a career using the massive media attention.

Puts 5y ago

And it was at that time they got the idea to actually do it! :D

awinter-py 5y ago

I mean they were greyballing city employees in some cities -- I don't know if that's 'personal pricing' but it's certainly an adversarial personalization feature VW during dieselgate had the ability to detect the testbench. I might build this here if I were concerned about getting caught. Uber built a remote kill switch for their tax docs in canada, this isn't unprecedented for them. also nobody denies location is used to personalize pricing, so wtf are they talking about. customizing the user's experience based on location is 100% personalization? the problem here is less the accusation than the total lack of price transparency + accountability on these markets

BenTheElder 5y ago
> Uber built a remote kill switch for their tax docs in canada, this isn't unprecedented for them. Do you have a pointer to more on this? Naive searching doesn't seem to turn up anything for me.
- awinter-py 5y ago
  it's their 'ripley' system https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2018/jan/11/uber-developed-secret-system-to-lock-down-staff-computers-in-a-police-raid https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2018/jan/11/uber-deve... https://www.bloomberg.com/opinion/articles/2018-01-12/uber-looks-great-when-the-police-barge-in https://www.bloomberg.com/opinion/articles/2018-01-12/uber-l...
  - BenTheElder 5y ago
    Thanks!
PragmaticPulp 5y ago
> also nobody denies location is used to personalize pricing Why would anyone be surprised that location is a factor for a ride service? Location and availability of drivers are basically the two main inputs. The service wouldn’t make much sense if they didn’t consider location of your start and finish points when pricing rides. This isn’t some nefarious scheme.

fouric 5y ago

> To test the allegation, they used two phones with different battery levels n=2 is only very slightly better than n=1, and still nothing close to a "debunking". Neither the original claim in the tweet nor the alleged debunking provide anything substantial, and nobody should be claiming anything until they do something at least semi-rigorous (n>10, control group, actual sampling of Uber prices and then statistical analysis). I couldn't do this, as none of the people in my friend circle have the Uber app, but I'm not in SV - seems like there should be a few HN denizens who could pull off something like this relatively easily and put the question to rest.

criticaltinker 5y ago
> nobody should be claiming anything until they do something at least semi-rigorous (n>10, control group, actual sampling of Uber prices and then statistical analysis) Couldn't agree more - right now all we have is very weak and inconclusive evidence. If someone is able to confirm this allegation, it would make for a big story and potential lawsuit, especially since Uber has been publicly and categorically denying the claim for at least 5 years.

1024core 5y ago

Then how do you explain this? https://twitter.com/eightyknots/status/1428251471087169536 https://twitter.com/eightyknots/status/1428251471087169536

criticaltinker 5y ago
"taken 10 minutes apart" - a rigorous proof of the claim would need to evaluate pricing at the same moment in time for two different battery percentages.
- 1024core 5y ago
  Unfortunately, the technology to instantly charge your phone within milliseconds does not exist yet.
  - deleted 5y ago
    [deleted]
ryanlol 5y ago
step 1) wait for surge pricing step 2) plug phone into charger step 3) wait until surge pricing ends Seems easy enough to explain.

Spooky23 5y ago

Wasn’t Uber the company that would manipulate pricing if you were looking for a ride in front of the local government taxing authority? Obviously the capability to do shady shit exists.

tantalor 5y ago

> they used two phones That is different than what is being alleged here, where it is different battery levels on one phone. Apples & oranges. The proper test would have been to fake the battery level with debug settings.

DeadlockAsync 5y ago

It isn't beneath them to use dark patterns, they already do that in real life with their wages/practices. Realistically I think it'd be pretty difficult to test this from the outside and get definitive answers. If they implemented something this scummy they'd surely implement some safeguards to make it harder to prove they're doing it, similar to the VW Diesel Emissions scandal.