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Note: not defending Apple's implementation here. > why they enables CSAM in the first place? Apple's privacy measures, such as not scanning your Cloud photos,

Note: not defending Apple's implementation here. > why they enables CSAM in the first place? Apple's privacy measures, such as not scanning your Cloud photos, is what helps enable CSAM. Sexual abusers very often take photos and often upload these to their communities, and Apple has given them a secure device with which to do that. This is becoming increasingly widespread — the number of reported CSAM material grew by more than 50% last year, to nearly 70 million images and videos [1]. Due to Apple's privacy, the numbers look like this: Facebook reported over 50 million combined images and videos, Google reported 3.5 million, Dropbox, Microsoft, Snap, and Twitter over 100,000 images and videos. Apple reported only 3,000 photos in the same period, and no videos. [1] Sexual abuse is experienced at some point in childhood by around 1 in 9 girls, and 1 in 53 boys. 93% of perpetrators are known to the victim. In 2016, CPS substantiated or found strong evidence to indicate sexual abuse of 57,329 children [2]. That's CPS, meaning in the US alone. > They must have known the consequences, PR and otherwise. The PR consequences of that have gone largely unnoticed, interestingly, and it's more so their attempts to curb it that are getting flak from the media. I suspect this is because we can't create statistics on what we can't detect. There can be no "Apple is enabling, and allowing to continue, the sexual abuse of 50,000 children a year." [1] https://www.nytimes.com/2020/02/07/us/online-child-sexual-abuse.html https://www.nytimes.com/2020/02/07/us/online-child-sexual-ab... [2] https://www.rainn.org/statistics/children-and-teens https://www.rainn.org/statistics/children-and-teens

giearff 5y ago
First of all, the topic is CSAM, so images videos and the like, not general abuse. I imagine CSAM production is substantially more rare since abuse is a precondition. Secondly, I don’t believe those statistics at all. You’re telling me 11% of girls have been sexually abused? That’s preposterous. There’s gotta be some selection bias or misreporting.
- lowkey_ 5y ago
  I edited the post to add images and videos statistics — it's frighteningly common. The numbers are correct and it's shocking and heart-wrenching; here's a linked study [1], but there are many. I went to college in Boston, where the Boston Globe broke a scandal that around 150 Catholic priests in Boston were accused of sexual abuse, with more than 500 victims [2] [3]. It was immensely tough to grasp and accept that in a small city like Boston, that many priests were sexually abusing children. [1] http://www.unh.edu/ccrc/pdf/9248.pdf http://www.unh.edu/ccrc/pdf/9248.pdf [2] https://www.theguardian.com/world/2010/apr/21/boston-globe-abuse-scandal-catholic https://www.theguardian.com/world/2010/apr/21/boston-globe-a... [3] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catholic_Archdiocese_of_Boston_sex_abuse_scandal https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catholic_Archdiocese_of_Boston...
- nitrogen 5y ago
  Abuse and assault are distressingly common and underreported. The numbers I'd heard from an acquaintance who does counseling were higher. None of the stories I've heard about would remotely have been helped by this tech.
- srswtf123 5y ago
  You might try actually talking honestly with some women about this some time. Every woman I know has a story to tell. Nearly all of them would make you weep. We could do so much better, but then people like yourself just straight up don’t believe it.
- giearff 5y ago
  Thanks for the downvotes. That will surely change my mind rather than polarizing me even further against these abuse claims.
pcurve 5y ago
"Apple's privacy measures, such as not scanning your Cloud photos, is what helps enable CSAM." this is what baffles me. I'm sure a good number of iphone customers have their photos automatically uploaded to icloud. For all intents and purposes, the end result is the same for most people. Apple is scanning your photos, and doing so on your phone feels much more intrusive.
- lowkey_ 5y ago
  I completely agree. For what it's worth, Apple has nothing to gain with this much of a privacy stir, especially when they're accomplishing the same level of detection that other companies accomplish with the simple cloud scanning. While it's possible that something nefarious is going on with Apple and the U.S. government, it's more likely that Apple got really 'big-brained' about this, had a lot of talks of "we want to retain privacy" and the iCloud team pushing against scanning, and so they ended up with this as a "more private" solution.
zug_zug 5y ago
I'm sorry, you clearly are an apologist in your phrasing > Apple's privacy measures, such as not scanning your Cloud photos, is what helps enable CSAM. This phrasing implies apple is somehow complicit for not scanning files AT REST. Files at rest are like files sitting in your closet, nobody ever expected them to be automatically scanned throughout all of history in the past, and hopefully aren't scanned in the future without any sort of warrant. This is why Facebook has more reports - it's a public photo distribution platform. > Sexual abusers very often take photos and often upload these to their communities, and Apple has given them a secure device with which to do that. No. Again very disingenuous. That's like saying "Some people abduct kids and Toyota has given them a vehicle with which to do that." No other device scans files at rest. Any form of distribution iMessage, cloud, SMS is already and should continue to be scanned during any sort of distribution so this policy does nothing for that. In short, No - we don't know why Apple is doing this. It's at best a hollow symbolic gesture against child porn (most of these measures scarcely ever catch anybody for child porn) and at worst a tool that will be misused by malicious governments in some form.
- lowkey_ 5y ago
  > I'm sorry, you clearly are an apologist in your phrasing This frankly sounds like some authoritarian ideologue phrasing. I disagree with Apple's choice here, but the commenter asked how Apple enables CSAM. While your response disagrees with my assessment of how Apple enables CSAM, it doesn't prevent any alternative theory. How do you believe Apple enables CSAM? > It's at best a hollow symbolic gesture against child porn I have to address this: It's at best an effective measure against child porn, considering Apple is hundreds of thousands to millions short on reported CSAM images compared to other tech companies. There are clearly drastic privacy consequences and potential future overreach, but you can't clearly analyze a policy without acknowledging its benefits.

giearff 5y ago

First of all, the topic is CSAM, so images videos and the like, not general abuse. I imagine CSAM production is substantially more rare since abuse is a precondition. Secondly, I don’t believe those statistics at all. You’re telling me 11% of girls have been sexually abused? That’s preposterous. There’s gotta be some selection bias or misreporting.

lowkey_ 5y ago
I edited the post to add images and videos statistics — it's frighteningly common. The numbers are correct and it's shocking and heart-wrenching; here's a linked study [1], but there are many. I went to college in Boston, where the Boston Globe broke a scandal that around 150 Catholic priests in Boston were accused of sexual abuse, with more than 500 victims [2] [3]. It was immensely tough to grasp and accept that in a small city like Boston, that many priests were sexually abusing children. [1] http://www.unh.edu/ccrc/pdf/9248.pdf http://www.unh.edu/ccrc/pdf/9248.pdf [2] https://www.theguardian.com/world/2010/apr/21/boston-globe-abuse-scandal-catholic https://www.theguardian.com/world/2010/apr/21/boston-globe-a... [3] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catholic_Archdiocese_of_Boston_sex_abuse_scandal https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catholic_Archdiocese_of_Boston...
nitrogen 5y ago
Abuse and assault are distressingly common and underreported. The numbers I'd heard from an acquaintance who does counseling were higher. None of the stories I've heard about would remotely have been helped by this tech.
srswtf123 5y ago
You might try actually talking honestly with some women about this some time. Every woman I know has a story to tell. Nearly all of them would make you weep. We could do so much better, but then people like yourself just straight up don’t believe it.
giearff 5y ago
Thanks for the downvotes. That will surely change my mind rather than polarizing me even further against these abuse claims.

pcurve 5y ago

"Apple's privacy measures, such as not scanning your Cloud photos, is what helps enable CSAM." this is what baffles me. I'm sure a good number of iphone customers have their photos automatically uploaded to icloud. For all intents and purposes, the end result is the same for most people. Apple is scanning your photos, and doing so on your phone feels much more intrusive.

lowkey_ 5y ago
I completely agree. For what it's worth, Apple has nothing to gain with this much of a privacy stir, especially when they're accomplishing the same level of detection that other companies accomplish with the simple cloud scanning. While it's possible that something nefarious is going on with Apple and the U.S. government, it's more likely that Apple got really 'big-brained' about this, had a lot of talks of "we want to retain privacy" and the iCloud team pushing against scanning, and so they ended up with this as a "more private" solution.

zug_zug 5y ago

I'm sorry, you clearly are an apologist in your phrasing > Apple's privacy measures, such as not scanning your Cloud photos, is what helps enable CSAM. This phrasing implies apple is somehow complicit for not scanning files AT REST. Files at rest are like files sitting in your closet, nobody ever expected them to be automatically scanned throughout all of history in the past, and hopefully aren't scanned in the future without any sort of warrant. This is why Facebook has more reports - it's a public photo distribution platform. > Sexual abusers very often take photos and often upload these to their communities, and Apple has given them a secure device with which to do that. No. Again very disingenuous. That's like saying "Some people abduct kids and Toyota has given them a vehicle with which to do that." No other device scans files at rest. Any form of distribution iMessage, cloud, SMS is already and should continue to be scanned during any sort of distribution so this policy does nothing for that. In short, No - we don't know why Apple is doing this. It's at best a hollow symbolic gesture against child porn (most of these measures scarcely ever catch anybody for child porn) and at worst a tool that will be misused by malicious governments in some form.

lowkey_ 5y ago
> I'm sorry, you clearly are an apologist in your phrasing This frankly sounds like some authoritarian ideologue phrasing. I disagree with Apple's choice here, but the commenter asked how Apple enables CSAM. While your response disagrees with my assessment of how Apple enables CSAM, it doesn't prevent any alternative theory. How do you believe Apple enables CSAM? > It's at best a hollow symbolic gesture against child porn I have to address this: It's at best an effective measure against child porn, considering Apple is hundreds of thousands to millions short on reported CSAM images compared to other tech companies. There are clearly drastic privacy consequences and potential future overreach, but you can't clearly analyze a policy without acknowledging its benefits.