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I urge anyone touched by this to learn about the prison abolition movement. My favorite thinker on the matter is Angela Davis. She was wrongly imprisoned for ov

I urge anyone touched by this to learn about the prison abolition movement. My favorite thinker on the matter is Angela Davis. She was wrongly imprisoned for over a year in the 1971-1972 which called attention to political prisoners the world over. After a global call for her release she was acquitted of the charges and released. She became a college professor and a prolific author, and is still today a highly respected representative of the prison abolition movement. We do not need to treat human beings this way, and every day that goes on is yet another tragedy. Prison abolition is not widely understood, and Angela Davis's work is a great way to learn more about it. There is a remarkable hour long interview of her from 1970 while she was imprisoned which you can watch on youtube: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RrSIm2RXN4o&list=PLP0dfLFk-aneZLf8EXfiYfwVLS7_SMVvq https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RrSIm2RXN4o&list=PLP0dfLFk-a... Here is a nice looking hour long lecture that was recorded more recently: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q25-KJ55k_0 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q25-KJ55k_0 To learn more about Angela Davis read this bio: https://womenshistory.si.edu/news/2020/06/angela-daviss-imprisonment-inspired-movement https://womenshistory.si.edu/news/2020/06/angela-daviss-impr... Or read one of her books on the matter. But if you aren't familiar or prison abolition seems weird, click one of these links and learn a little more. No person should ever endure what prisoners in the US face on a daily basis.

vishnugupta 5y ago
+1 to Angela Davis recommendation. In a similar vein please read “I am Troy Davis”, a truly moving account of a terrible fate.
guerrilla 5y ago
Don't forget her book "Are Prisons Obsolete?" https://www.amazon.com/Are-Prisons-Obsolete-Angela-Davis/dp/1583225811 https://www.amazon.com/Are-Prisons-Obsolete-Angela-Davis/dp/...
- choeger 5y ago
  Simple answer, no they are not. There are people that need to be locked up to protect society. Think Breivik, or the psychopaths that eradicate whole families for their perverted pleasure. That being said, prisons as a punishment seem to scale very badly. I think that a prison sentence up to maybe a year or so is a very effective deterrent against crimes like tax evasion, theft, fraud, or domestic violence (if it is charged, that is). But beyond that, it seems to stop working. So the question is: Do we want to give up on the punishment part? Do we want to introduce even more draconian measures?
  - guerrilla 5y ago
    > So the question is: Do we want to give up on the punishment part? Do we want to introduce even more draconian measures? If you read the book then you'd know that's what it's about. The title is written under the premise that prisons without punishment (and all their other negative qualities) are not prisons. It's a critique of prisons in the real world, not some abstract idea of prisons. The book's actually online [1] if $6.68 is too much. 1. https://collectiveliberation.org/wp-content/uploads/2013/01/Are_Prisons_Obsolete_Angela_Davis.pdf https://collectiveliberation.org/wp-content/uploads/2013/01/...
    - zozbot234 5y ago
      Prisons actually bundle punishment (which seems especially effective and worthwhile for shorter sentences) and isolation/protection (keeping criminals locked up even for longer timespans and thus literally preventing them from reoffending, which actually seems to be the key factor wrt. such longer sentences). So "prisons without punishment" could still be worthwhile and protect us from the most serious crimes. In many ways, being a prison inmate is punishment enough and the focus beyond that should very much be on rehabilitation that can benefit both the inmate and society as a whole.
  - bserge 5y ago
    For those kinds of people, why not death? Quick and easy. Somehow keeping them in solitary like absolute animals is more humane?
    - guerrilla 5y ago
      The reason usually given by people (and even argued in liberal political philosophy) is that the possibility of wrongfully killing someone is not worth it. It's considered not only an injustice to the individual but also harms others effected by the loss of the person. I agree, but I tend to think life imprisonment can be as bad or worse. Imprisoning someone for life is in many places simply torture, so we're wrongfully torturing someone for the remainder of their life instead while the effects on others can't be that much less, in fact it could prolong their suffering. The question you have to answer in order to form your opinion is: Given that you are charged with a crime that you did not commit, would you rather serve life in prison (especially given the chance it could be a nightmare prison) or get the death penalty? Personally, I'd take the latter, as I see the former as torture.
bitwize 5y ago
"They deserve what they get. Let them remain in prison." --Angela Davis on Czech opponents to the communist regime Seems her opposition to prisons was a bit... selective.
- inglor_cz 5y ago
  Czech here. Yes, Angela Davis was a huge icon for our totalitarian regime. Yes, our dissidents petitioned her to support them in their plight. Yes, she stayed silent. Double standards are everywhere.
- kwhitefoot 5y ago
  > her opposition to prisons was a bit... selective. So we can be selective in picking from her writings and opinions the things that work. One doesn't have to reject all of a person's work once one discovers that they are flawed human beings. For instance, Francis Galton was in favour of some rather unpleasant social ideas (eugenics) but we would be the poorer if we rejected his contributions to statistical methods: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Francis_Galton#Innovations_in_statistics_and_psychological_theory https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Francis_Galton#Innovations_in_...
- jeofken 5y ago
  It’s quite disheartening to read this thread, and how the mainstream on HN think they can centrally plan their way out of society’s problems (like UBI), and who excuse communists like this. As if you could just will incorruptible and truly just and virtuous people into government leadership roles, rather than self selected quacks and sophists, who are attracted by power.
  - likeclockwork 5y ago
    > rather than self selected quacks and sophists, who are attracted by power. Like all current politicians?
    - jeofken 5y ago
      Yes
rainworld 5y ago
The very same Angela Davis who on 8/5/1970 bought the shotgun that was used to blow Judge Harold Haley's head off two days later? https://pbs.twimg.com/media/E3UiyuqVUAE816j?format=jpg https://pbs.twimg.com/media/E3UiyuqVUAE816j?format=jpg
- guerrilla 5y ago
  She maintained her innocence and was eventually found not guilty on all counts. > A defense motion for a change of venue was granted, and the trial was moved to Santa Clara County. On June 4, 1972, after 13 hours of deliberations, the all-white jury returned a verdict of not guilty. The fact that she owned the guns used in the crime was judged insufficient to establish her role in the plot. John Lennon and Yoko Ono in support of her though. [1] 1. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MBpcm-DtN0Q https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MBpcm-DtN0Q
  - rainworld 5y ago
    To everybody interested in all this I will strongly recommend Bryan Burrough’s Days of Rage. Too few know just how much left-wing terrorism there was during that time, how much they got away with, and just how much support they got from mainstream society.[0] Lennon came to regret much of his left-wing activism later in life. [0] Cf. Tom Wolfe’s Radical Chic: https://nymag.com/news/features/46170/ https://nymag.com/news/features/46170/
    - Sporktacular 5y ago
      So you knew knowing she bought the shotgun but you didn't know she was acquitted? Or were you just hoping no one else did? You seem to have an agenda here, trying to find any way to undermine the left.
      - rainworld 5y ago
        I’m familiar with the details of the case, tyvm. Wrongful verdicts happen all the time. Especially when there’s enormous social pressure and polarization, then and now. The left (or progressivism, really) does not need my help undermining itself—it’s just that it’s a painfully slow slide down and I’d rather see something else during my lifetime and for my descendants.

vishnugupta 5y ago

+1 to Angela Davis recommendation. In a similar vein please read “I am Troy Davis”, a truly moving account of a terrible fate.

guerrilla 5y ago

Don't forget her book "Are Prisons Obsolete?" https://www.amazon.com/Are-Prisons-Obsolete-Angela-Davis/dp/1583225811 https://www.amazon.com/Are-Prisons-Obsolete-Angela-Davis/dp/...

choeger 5y ago
Simple answer, no they are not. There are people that need to be locked up to protect society. Think Breivik, or the psychopaths that eradicate whole families for their perverted pleasure. That being said, prisons as a punishment seem to scale very badly. I think that a prison sentence up to maybe a year or so is a very effective deterrent against crimes like tax evasion, theft, fraud, or domestic violence (if it is charged, that is). But beyond that, it seems to stop working. So the question is: Do we want to give up on the punishment part? Do we want to introduce even more draconian measures?
- guerrilla 5y ago
  > So the question is: Do we want to give up on the punishment part? Do we want to introduce even more draconian measures? If you read the book then you'd know that's what it's about. The title is written under the premise that prisons without punishment (and all their other negative qualities) are not prisons. It's a critique of prisons in the real world, not some abstract idea of prisons. The book's actually online [1] if $6.68 is too much. 1. https://collectiveliberation.org/wp-content/uploads/2013/01/Are_Prisons_Obsolete_Angela_Davis.pdf https://collectiveliberation.org/wp-content/uploads/2013/01/...
  - zozbot234 5y ago
    Prisons actually bundle punishment (which seems especially effective and worthwhile for shorter sentences) and isolation/protection (keeping criminals locked up even for longer timespans and thus literally preventing them from reoffending, which actually seems to be the key factor wrt. such longer sentences). So "prisons without punishment" could still be worthwhile and protect us from the most serious crimes. In many ways, being a prison inmate is punishment enough and the focus beyond that should very much be on rehabilitation that can benefit both the inmate and society as a whole.
- bserge 5y ago
  For those kinds of people, why not death? Quick and easy. Somehow keeping them in solitary like absolute animals is more humane?
  - guerrilla 5y ago
    The reason usually given by people (and even argued in liberal political philosophy) is that the possibility of wrongfully killing someone is not worth it. It's considered not only an injustice to the individual but also harms others effected by the loss of the person. I agree, but I tend to think life imprisonment can be as bad or worse. Imprisoning someone for life is in many places simply torture, so we're wrongfully torturing someone for the remainder of their life instead while the effects on others can't be that much less, in fact it could prolong their suffering. The question you have to answer in order to form your opinion is: Given that you are charged with a crime that you did not commit, would you rather serve life in prison (especially given the chance it could be a nightmare prison) or get the death penalty? Personally, I'd take the latter, as I see the former as torture.

bitwize 5y ago

"They deserve what they get. Let them remain in prison." --Angela Davis on Czech opponents to the communist regime Seems her opposition to prisons was a bit... selective.

inglor_cz 5y ago
Czech here. Yes, Angela Davis was a huge icon for our totalitarian regime. Yes, our dissidents petitioned her to support them in their plight. Yes, she stayed silent. Double standards are everywhere.
kwhitefoot 5y ago
> her opposition to prisons was a bit... selective. So we can be selective in picking from her writings and opinions the things that work. One doesn't have to reject all of a person's work once one discovers that they are flawed human beings. For instance, Francis Galton was in favour of some rather unpleasant social ideas (eugenics) but we would be the poorer if we rejected his contributions to statistical methods: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Francis_Galton#Innovations_in_statistics_and_psychological_theory https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Francis_Galton#Innovations_in_...
jeofken 5y ago
It’s quite disheartening to read this thread, and how the mainstream on HN think they can centrally plan their way out of society’s problems (like UBI), and who excuse communists like this. As if you could just will incorruptible and truly just and virtuous people into government leadership roles, rather than self selected quacks and sophists, who are attracted by power.
- likeclockwork 5y ago
  > rather than self selected quacks and sophists, who are attracted by power. Like all current politicians?
  - jeofken 5y ago
    Yes

rainworld 5y ago

The very same Angela Davis who on 8/5/1970 bought the shotgun that was used to blow Judge Harold Haley's head off two days later? https://pbs.twimg.com/media/E3UiyuqVUAE816j?format=jpg https://pbs.twimg.com/media/E3UiyuqVUAE816j?format=jpg

guerrilla 5y ago
She maintained her innocence and was eventually found not guilty on all counts. > A defense motion for a change of venue was granted, and the trial was moved to Santa Clara County. On June 4, 1972, after 13 hours of deliberations, the all-white jury returned a verdict of not guilty. The fact that she owned the guns used in the crime was judged insufficient to establish her role in the plot. John Lennon and Yoko Ono in support of her though. [1] 1. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MBpcm-DtN0Q https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MBpcm-DtN0Q
- rainworld 5y ago
  To everybody interested in all this I will strongly recommend Bryan Burrough’s Days of Rage. Too few know just how much left-wing terrorism there was during that time, how much they got away with, and just how much support they got from mainstream society.[0] Lennon came to regret much of his left-wing activism later in life. [0] Cf. Tom Wolfe’s Radical Chic: https://nymag.com/news/features/46170/ https://nymag.com/news/features/46170/
  - Sporktacular 5y ago
    So you knew knowing she bought the shotgun but you didn't know she was acquitted? Or were you just hoping no one else did? You seem to have an agenda here, trying to find any way to undermine the left.
    - rainworld 5y ago
      I’m familiar with the details of the case, tyvm. Wrongful verdicts happen all the time. Especially when there’s enormous social pressure and polarization, then and now. The left (or progressivism, really) does not need my help undermining itself—it’s just that it’s a painfully slow slide down and I’d rather see something else during my lifetime and for my descendants.