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> The alternative is upload everything unencrypted to providers who then scan there That's exactly how it should be. If a service provider wants to scan unencr

> The alternative is upload everything unencrypted to providers who then scan there That's exactly how it should be. If a service provider wants to scan unencrypted documents for legal or PR reasons that's completely understandable. If instead they want to provide true E2EE and risk ending up in court with the regulators, that's also fine. E2EE with black box on device scanning, however, is an absolutely terrible idea. It misleads regular people who almost certainly won't understand what's really going on. It's easily subverted by various governments as a condition of doing business. It blurs the line regarding ownership and unlawful search, thereby eroding future expectations of civil rights. Apple should just be honest about the fact that they aren't comfortable providing a full E2EE solution for various regulatory or political reasons.

brokenmachine 5y ago
There's no proper encryption though. In my mind, it's just like having everything unencrypted but using TLS to get it to Apple central. Apple employees can still access it. This is just ever so slightly better than the worst of everything. No real encryption, on-device scanning and scanning on Apple servers. "For privacy", WTF!!
- d110af5ccf 5y ago
  No client side encryption yet. I can't see any reason to implement a scanner in this way other than at least having E2EE as a possibility under consideration. They knew there was the possibility for PR backlash. Doing it on device also adds significant complexity. Meanwhile scanning on upload is a very common and well accepted (both legally and socially) practice. On its own the current approach is all downsides and no upsides so there has to be something else going on here. Wanting to market iCloud as providing full E2EE is obvious and fits perfectly.
  - brokenmachine 5y ago
    Nitpick: What I think you're talking about is not E2E because there is no recipient (ie in this scenario Apple is not able to decrypt your data). It's just bog-standard encryption so your files are private or only shared with people you choose. We can only recognize the current situation, not a hypothetical future one. I for one think it is unlikely that Apple will willingly lock themselves out of that mountain of intoxicating user data. I believe their privacy stance is just marketing. There's countless examples of them not caring about real security issues, eg https://sneak.berlin/20201112/your-computer-isnt-yours/ https://sneak.berlin/20201112/your-computer-isnt-yours/ Even if they do ever implement true encryption - not E2E between customer and Apple - personally I wouldn't trust it because of the unauditable on-device scanning/snitching.

brokenmachine 5y ago

There's no proper encryption though. In my mind, it's just like having everything unencrypted but using TLS to get it to Apple central. Apple employees can still access it. This is just ever so slightly better than the worst of everything. No real encryption, on-device scanning and scanning on Apple servers. "For privacy", WTF!!

d110af5ccf 5y ago
No client side encryption yet. I can't see any reason to implement a scanner in this way other than at least having E2EE as a possibility under consideration. They knew there was the possibility for PR backlash. Doing it on device also adds significant complexity. Meanwhile scanning on upload is a very common and well accepted (both legally and socially) practice. On its own the current approach is all downsides and no upsides so there has to be something else going on here. Wanting to market iCloud as providing full E2EE is obvious and fits perfectly.
- brokenmachine 5y ago
  Nitpick: What I think you're talking about is not E2E because there is no recipient (ie in this scenario Apple is not able to decrypt your data). It's just bog-standard encryption so your files are private or only shared with people you choose. We can only recognize the current situation, not a hypothetical future one. I for one think it is unlikely that Apple will willingly lock themselves out of that mountain of intoxicating user data. I believe their privacy stance is just marketing. There's countless examples of them not caring about real security issues, eg https://sneak.berlin/20201112/your-computer-isnt-yours/ https://sneak.berlin/20201112/your-computer-isnt-yours/ Even if they do ever implement true encryption - not E2E between customer and Apple - personally I wouldn't trust it because of the unauditable on-device scanning/snitching.