6 ms·

I get that in the "most secure boundary" sense, I should have a work provided phone for work stuff, BUT... I don't want to carry two phones. I'm part of a tea

by Cd00d 5y ago

I get that in the "most secure boundary" sense, I should have a work provided phone for work stuff, BUT... I don't want to carry two phones. I'm part of a team that owns some responsibility for fixing things that break in the night. I find it freeing to be able to reply to a Slack or Outlook email while I'm with my kids at the playground. I see the above advice all the time, but I can't help but think it only relates to an IC with no career ambition, no outside responsibility distractions (kids schedules), that's 100% committed to 9-5 life and has little opportunity for big promotion based on being part of a chain of ownership for things that are customer facing. Personally, I've mostly worked at small companies (my preference), and have ambitions. I have a healthy work/life balance, but also don't want my products to fail and occasionally want the flexibility to help my colleagues while AFK. In the end, the above advice is very popular, but I just see a jaded burnout mercenary in a company with tens or hundreds of thousand employees.

techrat 5y ago
> I don't want to carry two phones. Ah, so you're willing to trade privacy for convenience.
- fuyu 5y ago
  I'm not sure what tone your comment is intended to give off, but does there exist a person who _isn't_ willing to trade privacy for convenience to some degree? One certainly couldn't be using the internet or participating in society if they weren't willing to give up some privacy.
- janderland 5y ago
  In many circumstances, yes I am. :)
- manmal 5y ago
  Privacy vs convenience is a spectrum, the question is not _whether_ you trade between those, but rather _how much_.
- aaronbrethorst 5y ago
  OK, Dave Morin.
- smabie 5y ago
  You are too
kodah 5y ago
This is where I think the new line of Linux phones need to put in a lot of work. Properly sandboxing applications and defending against corporate snoopers should be a top priority of any open source phone OS.
- XorNot 5y ago
  I mean you need an undetectable virtual machine for a phone really. That's the reality: I'm content with my phone running some type of hard to crack secure element so companies can convince themselves it's secure, but what I want is that thing isolated and it's network and cellular access gated.
  - perryizgr8 5y ago
    This is what Samsung Knox is. I use it for my company email and slack etc.
xenophonf 5y ago
> I find it freeing to be able to reply to a Slack or Outlook email while I'm with my kids at the playground. You can spend as much time on work as you want, but you only get so much time with your children. OP's point is that you should guard the time you have and spend it wisely. Personally, I find carrying a second device and keeping things separate part of maintaining a healthy balance between my work and my personal time. I also don't want my personal devices or projects tied up in some corporate legal proceeding, so I keep them separate for that reason as well.
- shakezula 5y ago
  I can attest to the importance of this legal separation. I had a personal laptop stolen that had work files on it from before my work had given me a laptop, and I had the uncomfortable responsibility of disclosing that to my boss. I hadn't even done anything wrong but it made me hella uncomfortable thinking about my work or the cops getting their hands on my laptop. It just feels too personal. I had to file police reports and everything, and ultimately it was never found, but I still hate the idea and sometimes think about where that laptop ended up.
- smabie 5y ago
  Some people don't want any boundaries, and that's fine too.
- merrywhether 5y ago
  Part of the thought process is that he wouldn’t be at the playground with his kids in the middle of the day at all if it made him completely unavailable to respond to stuff. Similarly, I go surfing some mornings and respond to people on my watch to keep them unblocked while I’m having some fun at a time strict 9-5 wouldn’t allow.
  - Cd00d 5y ago
    This is exactly correct.
- convnet 5y ago
  I maintain a pretty optimal WLB at my current job (I don't remember the last time I've done any work outside of normal work hours) but I do like having work Slack and calendar on my phone. In my case I feel it adds freedom to my day since it makes it easier to just go run a quick mid-day errand without worrying that you're missing a meeting or something. I didn't used to have any of it on my phone because I always heard it was bad psychologically, but as a result I always felt nervous stepping away from my desk for too long because I'd have no way of knowing if someone needed me. I think if I was in a position where I was asked to do work outside of work hours I'd feel differently about this though, but the extent of my after work Slack is mostly requesting days off and browsing some announcement threads.
lmm 5y ago
If you're trying to get promoted by doing unpaid overtime and/or unpaid oncall shifts, you're a class traitor screwing over your colleagues. Help them by setting healthy boundaries even if you don't actually need them yourself.
- dylan604 5y ago
  This is just not a good outlook. Class traitor is ridiculous. If someone is of marrying age and/or child rearing age, are they a traitor to their class because they choose to work instead of whatever your preconceived notions are? People are different and have different work/life conditions than you. You're just going to need to come to terms with this.
  - mattigames 5y ago
    The key term in their comment is "unpaid overtime", that's the part that makes them a traitor to their class.
    - dylan604 5y ago
      if they want to work because they have no life, that's fine and really none of your business. if you work for a company where working off the clock like this is accepted, then it should be taken as a red flag. when employees are on the clock, there are protections established for both employee and employer. if someone is injured while on the clock, workers comp is at play as well as corp insurance. if someone is working off the clock and injury occurs, shit storms are coming. if you were clocked out and working because company expects it, you can sue them. if you were doing it on your own to be "a good employee", you can get the blame. in terms of coders, say you're off the clock and you accidentally truncate a table while connected to production when you thought you were in dev. if you're off the clock, you can actually be accused of "hacking" and doing a malicious act by the corp. if you were on the clock, then they would have a harder time with those accusations. on the other end, i've worked for companies that were very good on the on clock/off clock recognition. if you were on a paid vacation and the company needed you to answer a call or respond to email, they would credit you that vacation day back even if it only took 5 mins. i miss that company. best work/life balance company i every worked.
beermonster 5y ago
> I don't want to carry two phones. Neither did Hilary Clinton
- sysadmindotfail 5y ago
  Relevant Between Two Ferns: https://youtu.be/xrkPe-9rM1Q?t=317 https://youtu.be/xrkPe-9rM1Q?t=317
nxpnsv 5y ago
I have found few things as freeing as removing slack from my phone, especially at the playground - i enjoy the time i spend with my kids more.
- vanviegen 5y ago
  To me, being at the playground is not a prime example of spending time with my kids. I'm fine with replying to some work related messages while basically watching my kids play. Playing soccer together, reading to them, playing a board game, doing a joint Lego construction project, learning them to skate, etc. That's spending time together. It doesn't mix well with work.
  - nxpnsv 5y ago
    What activities mean what depends on the kids age a lot, and the kids and the parent. We agree that spending time together doesn’t mix well with work.
  - JohnFen 5y ago
    > To me, being at the playground is not a prime example of spending time with my kids. It is if you actually play with them while there.
fshbbdssbbgdd 5y ago
I think you are dramatically overestimating the actual challenge of carrying two phones. Phones these days have great battery life, and they make pretty small models. The phone is like 0.2% the mass of your body. It’s not that big of a load. I’ve been promoted several times while having separate work and personal phones.
- blitzar 5y ago
  If more phones is less ambitious, is having 0 phones the maximum ambition? I have tapped away on slack on my work phone while at the playground or sports or recital on weekends etc 100's of times. Yes I feel like a right prick pulling two phones out of my pocket - I mitigate this by not being the kind of person who sits down and places their phone on the table face up at dinner. As for the suggestion that the seperation or work/personal is a sign of less ambition, that you somehow care less about work than your personal life - my work phone is set to ring 24 hours a day, my personal phone vibrate only. There are times where I am not keeping my work life from getting in the way of my personal life, but keeping my personal life from getting in the way of work. Watching someone go to check their work slack on their phone only to have their attention dragged away to group chats with friends on competing attention apps gives me pause to consider. At the end of the day, whatever works for people, I have found what I think works for me.
treebot 5y ago
I also just want to say, as a full time remote worker, I need Slack on my personal phone. Remote work allows you to work anytime and thus break out of the 9-5. But to properly do that and still be a member of a team, I need to be reachable on my regular phone. If I decide to switch up my day and work at night, I need to still be reachable for random things during other people's working hours. It's usually just someone has a quick question. Team members in other time zones have discussions on Slack that are outside of the time I'm sitting in front of my computer. I like seeing these discussions and contributing while I'm at the grocery store or some such. If mission critical software is blowing up, I need to know that I need to get back to my computer. If I don't have any real work to do that day, I can go do something else, and just check my phone to see if I need to get back to my computer because someone who actually is working needs me. I can actually sort of take days off this way, without having to actually ask for the day off. In general, as a remote worker, having Slack on my personal phone allows me to work less and more efficiently. It gives the illusion that I am always working, whereas I'm actually working only when I want to and am most effective.
- jasonkester 5y ago
  You don’t have to do that. I also work remote, in a different time zone to my team who communicate mainly on slack. I would never consider installing it on my phone. Yes, it is possible that somebody will send me a message when I’m not at my machine. They’ll get a response the next morning I’m in. To me, that’s just the most basic form of boundary setting. If I’m not at work, I’m not working. Being remote doesn’t change that.
megablast 5y ago
You take your kids to the playground at night?? Ok.
anigbrowl 5y ago
You can be ambitious and committed to the success of your team/projects while still maintaining clear boundaries. Indeed if you're that ambitious (as you repeatedly emphasize), I think it's wiser to maintain such a clear boundary. What if you either have to leave your firm due to an emerging problem or receive an offer that you dearly wish to accept, but you're so entangled with your employer that disconnection if going to be fraught and/or have legal complications? What if your employer winds up in messy litigation and your personal data ends up as part of the evidentiary record, as mentioned in that Twitter thread? I've known people who are very driven and can't unplug, who later on end up being very resentful of their own careers because they've structured everything around pleasing others and never saying no.
jay_kyburz 5y ago
When things break at night, can't they just call your personal phone? Can't you login to slack on your personal phone, from the browser if you have to? Why does cooperate IT need to own your tech just for you to be reachable.

by Cd00d 5y ago

techrat 5y ago

> I don't want to carry two phones. Ah, so you're willing to trade privacy for convenience.

fuyu 5y ago
I'm not sure what tone your comment is intended to give off, but does there exist a person who _isn't_ willing to trade privacy for convenience to some degree? One certainly couldn't be using the internet or participating in society if they weren't willing to give up some privacy.
janderland 5y ago
In many circumstances, yes I am. :)
manmal 5y ago
Privacy vs convenience is a spectrum, the question is not _whether_ you trade between those, but rather _how much_.
aaronbrethorst 5y ago
OK, Dave Morin.
smabie 5y ago
You are too

kodah 5y ago

This is where I think the new line of Linux phones need to put in a lot of work. Properly sandboxing applications and defending against corporate snoopers should be a top priority of any open source phone OS.

XorNot 5y ago
I mean you need an undetectable virtual machine for a phone really. That's the reality: I'm content with my phone running some type of hard to crack secure element so companies can convince themselves it's secure, but what I want is that thing isolated and it's network and cellular access gated.
- perryizgr8 5y ago
  This is what Samsung Knox is. I use it for my company email and slack etc.

xenophonf 5y ago

> I find it freeing to be able to reply to a Slack or Outlook email while I'm with my kids at the playground. You can spend as much time on work as you want, but you only get so much time with your children. OP's point is that you should guard the time you have and spend it wisely. Personally, I find carrying a second device and keeping things separate part of maintaining a healthy balance between my work and my personal time. I also don't want my personal devices or projects tied up in some corporate legal proceeding, so I keep them separate for that reason as well.

shakezula 5y ago
I can attest to the importance of this legal separation. I had a personal laptop stolen that had work files on it from before my work had given me a laptop, and I had the uncomfortable responsibility of disclosing that to my boss. I hadn't even done anything wrong but it made me hella uncomfortable thinking about my work or the cops getting their hands on my laptop. It just feels too personal. I had to file police reports and everything, and ultimately it was never found, but I still hate the idea and sometimes think about where that laptop ended up.
smabie 5y ago
Some people don't want any boundaries, and that's fine too.
merrywhether 5y ago
Part of the thought process is that he wouldn’t be at the playground with his kids in the middle of the day at all if it made him completely unavailable to respond to stuff. Similarly, I go surfing some mornings and respond to people on my watch to keep them unblocked while I’m having some fun at a time strict 9-5 wouldn’t allow.
- Cd00d 5y ago
  This is exactly correct.
convnet 5y ago
I maintain a pretty optimal WLB at my current job (I don't remember the last time I've done any work outside of normal work hours) but I do like having work Slack and calendar on my phone. In my case I feel it adds freedom to my day since it makes it easier to just go run a quick mid-day errand without worrying that you're missing a meeting or something. I didn't used to have any of it on my phone because I always heard it was bad psychologically, but as a result I always felt nervous stepping away from my desk for too long because I'd have no way of knowing if someone needed me. I think if I was in a position where I was asked to do work outside of work hours I'd feel differently about this though, but the extent of my after work Slack is mostly requesting days off and browsing some announcement threads.

lmm 5y ago

If you're trying to get promoted by doing unpaid overtime and/or unpaid oncall shifts, you're a class traitor screwing over your colleagues. Help them by setting healthy boundaries even if you don't actually need them yourself.

dylan604 5y ago
This is just not a good outlook. Class traitor is ridiculous. If someone is of marrying age and/or child rearing age, are they a traitor to their class because they choose to work instead of whatever your preconceived notions are? People are different and have different work/life conditions than you. You're just going to need to come to terms with this.
- mattigames 5y ago
  The key term in their comment is "unpaid overtime", that's the part that makes them a traitor to their class.
  - dylan604 5y ago
    if they want to work because they have no life, that's fine and really none of your business. if you work for a company where working off the clock like this is accepted, then it should be taken as a red flag. when employees are on the clock, there are protections established for both employee and employer. if someone is injured while on the clock, workers comp is at play as well as corp insurance. if someone is working off the clock and injury occurs, shit storms are coming. if you were clocked out and working because company expects it, you can sue them. if you were doing it on your own to be "a good employee", you can get the blame. in terms of coders, say you're off the clock and you accidentally truncate a table while connected to production when you thought you were in dev. if you're off the clock, you can actually be accused of "hacking" and doing a malicious act by the corp. if you were on the clock, then they would have a harder time with those accusations. on the other end, i've worked for companies that were very good on the on clock/off clock recognition. if you were on a paid vacation and the company needed you to answer a call or respond to email, they would credit you that vacation day back even if it only took 5 mins. i miss that company. best work/life balance company i every worked.

beermonster 5y ago

> I don't want to carry two phones. Neither did Hilary Clinton

sysadmindotfail 5y ago
Relevant Between Two Ferns: https://youtu.be/xrkPe-9rM1Q?t=317 https://youtu.be/xrkPe-9rM1Q?t=317

nxpnsv 5y ago

I have found few things as freeing as removing slack from my phone, especially at the playground - i enjoy the time i spend with my kids more.

vanviegen 5y ago
To me, being at the playground is not a prime example of spending time with my kids. I'm fine with replying to some work related messages while basically watching my kids play. Playing soccer together, reading to them, playing a board game, doing a joint Lego construction project, learning them to skate, etc. That's spending time together. It doesn't mix well with work.
- nxpnsv 5y ago
  What activities mean what depends on the kids age a lot, and the kids and the parent. We agree that spending time together doesn’t mix well with work.
- JohnFen 5y ago
  > To me, being at the playground is not a prime example of spending time with my kids. It is if you actually play with them while there.

fshbbdssbbgdd 5y ago

I think you are dramatically overestimating the actual challenge of carrying two phones. Phones these days have great battery life, and they make pretty small models. The phone is like 0.2% the mass of your body. It’s not that big of a load. I’ve been promoted several times while having separate work and personal phones.

blitzar 5y ago
If more phones is less ambitious, is having 0 phones the maximum ambition? I have tapped away on slack on my work phone while at the playground or sports or recital on weekends etc 100's of times. Yes I feel like a right prick pulling two phones out of my pocket - I mitigate this by not being the kind of person who sits down and places their phone on the table face up at dinner. As for the suggestion that the seperation or work/personal is a sign of less ambition, that you somehow care less about work than your personal life - my work phone is set to ring 24 hours a day, my personal phone vibrate only. There are times where I am not keeping my work life from getting in the way of my personal life, but keeping my personal life from getting in the way of work. Watching someone go to check their work slack on their phone only to have their attention dragged away to group chats with friends on competing attention apps gives me pause to consider. At the end of the day, whatever works for people, I have found what I think works for me.

treebot 5y ago

I also just want to say, as a full time remote worker, I need Slack on my personal phone. Remote work allows you to work anytime and thus break out of the 9-5. But to properly do that and still be a member of a team, I need to be reachable on my regular phone. If I decide to switch up my day and work at night, I need to still be reachable for random things during other people's working hours. It's usually just someone has a quick question. Team members in other time zones have discussions on Slack that are outside of the time I'm sitting in front of my computer. I like seeing these discussions and contributing while I'm at the grocery store or some such. If mission critical software is blowing up, I need to know that I need to get back to my computer. If I don't have any real work to do that day, I can go do something else, and just check my phone to see if I need to get back to my computer because someone who actually is working needs me. I can actually sort of take days off this way, without having to actually ask for the day off. In general, as a remote worker, having Slack on my personal phone allows me to work less and more efficiently. It gives the illusion that I am always working, whereas I'm actually working only when I want to and am most effective.

jasonkester 5y ago
You don’t have to do that. I also work remote, in a different time zone to my team who communicate mainly on slack. I would never consider installing it on my phone. Yes, it is possible that somebody will send me a message when I’m not at my machine. They’ll get a response the next morning I’m in. To me, that’s just the most basic form of boundary setting. If I’m not at work, I’m not working. Being remote doesn’t change that.

megablast 5y ago

You take your kids to the playground at night?? Ok.

anigbrowl 5y ago

You can be ambitious and committed to the success of your team/projects while still maintaining clear boundaries. Indeed if you're that ambitious (as you repeatedly emphasize), I think it's wiser to maintain such a clear boundary. What if you either have to leave your firm due to an emerging problem or receive an offer that you dearly wish to accept, but you're so entangled with your employer that disconnection if going to be fraught and/or have legal complications? What if your employer winds up in messy litigation and your personal data ends up as part of the evidentiary record, as mentioned in that Twitter thread? I've known people who are very driven and can't unplug, who later on end up being very resentful of their own careers because they've structured everything around pleasing others and never saying no.

jay_kyburz 5y ago

When things break at night, can't they just call your personal phone? Can't you login to slack on your personal phone, from the browser if you have to? Why does cooperate IT need to own your tech just for you to be reachable.