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I’m slowly getting the impression that either there’s been a policy change at Apple in terms of customer privacy, or some other government pressure that’s causi

I’m slowly getting the impression that either there’s been a policy change at Apple in terms of customer privacy, or some other government pressure that’s causing all of these seemingly anti-privacy decisions to be made. I’m considering moving away from the Apple eco-system, any recommendations? I’m equally distrustful of Android (specifically Google). I feel like my only option is to compile and deploy my own version of Android (or some other OS) to a non-privacy invading phone.

EarlKing 5y ago
At this point you might as well buy a Pinephone. It's about as close as you can get to privacy-respecting. Just don't ask too much of it and try not to mind the price.
- commoner 5y ago
  Well, it's only $149 (or $199 for the higher-spec model with a dock), so it's affordably priced for a phone. One way to keep expectations in check is to treat the PinePhone as an upgrade to a feature phone, until the software options are more fleshed out.
busymom0 5y ago
> customer privacy I agree with the point of your comment but this particular post is regarding employees and seems like this has been in place for 3 years at least (tweet mentions it). I started moving away from Apple a few months ago, much before this Apple CSAM debacle. This is a pretty big move for me because I am a developer who makes apps for both iOS and MacOS, so I pretty much need Apple software for work. No longer buying iPhones or Macs. I was planning on upgrading to the Mac Mini with M1 chip later this fall but now I plan on building a hackintosh instead. I also no longer recommend Apple devices to friends/family. I got myself a cheap android phone which I have de-googled myself. I got this Android phone ($190 USD for a very good phone - 8GB ram, 12gb space): https://www.amazon.com/UMIDIGI-Unlocked-4150mAh-Capacity-Smartphone/dp/B09372DWKL/ref=sr_1_2?dchild=1&keywords=umidigi+a9+pro&qid=1628479572&sr=8-2 https://www.amazon.com/UMIDIGI-Unlocked-4150mAh-Capacity-Sma... I use Firefox for YouTube on it with the following add-ons: 1. uBlock Origin 2. Video Background Play Fix add-on This allows me to use YouTube as a background playback music player. And if needed, I use YouTube-dl to get the audio files and put them on the phone. You can check out several tutorials to de-google an android phone.
- Johnny555 5y ago
  No longer buying iPhones or Macs. I was planning on upgrading to the Mac Mini with M1 chip later this fall but now I plan on building a hackintosh instead. If you don't trust Apple, why build a Hackintosh and run Apple software?
  - bnj 5y ago
    Not the parent you're replying to but it sounded from the post like it's because they develop apps on apple platforms and need them for work.
    - deleted 5y ago
      [deleted]
  - artificial 5y ago
    >This is a pretty big move for me because I am a developer who makes apps for both iOS and MacOS, so I pretty much need Apple software for work. Looks like it's work related. Although perhaps they could just treat it as a work device and use personal devices for everything else.
  - busymom0 5y ago
    I require MacOS for app development (I am an iOS/MacOS Developer) and it can only be done using MacOS. If I have a hackintosh (or maybe just build my own PC and run MacOS in a VM, then I don't have to buy Apple hardware.
jollybean 5y ago
The internal policy is invariably related to their views on ultra secrecy. Because they are 'Apple' and people want the jobs, there's acquiescence. When people leave it's probably a different story.
kylec 5y ago
The whole using-personal-iCloud-for-work thing isn't super new, I started at Apple ~2 years ago and it was the recommended practice back then
didericis 5y ago
It’s a downgrade, but the freedom of running linux on a phone is nice. I have a pinephone running sxmo, probably the nerdiest and least friendly ux possible. I’ve been using it sparingly, but intend to make a full time switch pretty soon. Having a phone with less capability and a focus on privacy will I think help make my phone less of a mental zapping appendage and more like the useful tool I remember these things being way back when. I guess I’m arguing why even bother with a full replacement? I know everyone else seems to be all in on mobile/leaving a modern app ecosystem feels like getting left behind, but maybe everyone else is wrong. Maybe it’s better to just step away from all the ultra modern attention grabbing bricks of pure unadulterated dopamine and switch to a hacky little portable computer when you need to look something up, or text someone, or call someone, or work on some text document you have or whatever. If you have a phone with even a crappy browser you have access to a ton of modern functionality anyway if you want it, minus all of the notification hell.
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
- jimbob45 5y ago
  I’m the same way. For times I absolutely need an app (like banking or healthcare), I’ll boot up an old iPhone I keep around for that exact purpose. Otherwise, I keep no apps other than browsers on my current phone.
- jraph 5y ago
  I'm using a PinePhone right now and I hope I won't need to switch back to Android. I grew used to this freedom. However, I would recommend it only to the most determined people because many things don't work well. Forget GPS navigation. GPS does not get the correct location most of the time, AGPS only works through a hacky bash / python script. There is no good gps app anyway. The sms app on phosh is crashy and does not yet support MMS for which you have to use another hacky script (but I'm working on an alternative app). The phone often needs to be rebooted due to the modem sometimes not waking up. Calls are not high quality. No built in way to have a reliable alarm if the phone is not plugged. Photos are bad. The phone is generally slow for many modern web apps targeting more powerful hardware. The phone takes time to wake up for a call. I would not want to experience an emergency requiring to call someone. The phone is not waterproof so it will likely break if it takes a good rain. The on-screen time is not great though you can buy spare batteries which can largely change the game. Remember to set the sleep timer to 30s, which you need to do using the command line if you use Phosh, it helps a lot. A smoother transition could be to use a degoogled android phone, maybe with MicroG for cell/wifi based location and only using free software (from F-Droid). But you'll still rely on proprietary blob. I only ever used open source apps on Android and always refused to use apps like WhatsApp & its friends, which helped the transition to the PinePhone. On the flip side, the PinePhone is getting better every day and the ability to just buy a spare battery and a battery charger and swap them as needed without any tool is really nice. I typed this message on the PinePhone by the way. It's far from horrible despite my comment. edit: what I want to say is, wanting to migrate to free and privacy-friendly software is probably a good thing, but increase the chance it will work by not making it too hard. On the desktop, Linux distributions are delightful to use, free software phones are still pretty much work-in-progress unfortunately. The gap between a degoogled Android phone and a PinePhone is huge, probably way bigger than between an iPhone and a degoogled Android phone.
smartbit 5y ago
See previous discussion at Ask HN: What Apple alternatives are you switching to? https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28220968 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28220968
hanniabu 5y ago
> I’m slowly getting the impression that either there’s been a policy change at Apple in terms of customer privacy More likely that they never were for privacy and injury used it as a marketing ploy, putting on the mirage of being pro-privacy.
- encryptluks2 5y ago
  100% this. If you had said this a month ago you'd get viciously downvoted. People are finally waking up though.
- azinman2 5y ago
  I work for Apple. It’s not just marketing. It’s in every discussion in every feature. Even the current CSAM implementation is actually all about privacy if you read the details on how it’s implemented. The real question and concern is what happens once laws start getting passed that run counter to this. And that then won’t be just Apple’s problem at that point.
  - brokenmachine 5y ago
    >Even the current CSAM implementation is actually all about privacy if you read the details on how it’s implemented. Lol, no.
    - azinman2 5y ago
      Read this: https://www.apple.com/child-safety/pdf/CSAM_Detection_Technical_Summary.pdf https://www.apple.com/child-safety/pdf/CSAM_Detection_Techni... and tell me what's not about privacy with this? The alternative is upload everything unencrypted to providers who then scan there, which is how everything else works.
      - brokenmachine 5y ago
        This is a ridiculous redefinition of the word, "privacy". I don't need to read your marketing manual when there's no getting around the fact you are normalizing on-device scanning on personal devices and automated secret reporting to the authorities, which means iphones have now become adversarial. Used to be that there was a clear delineation between a customer's device and a cloud server. Not anymore with Apple "privacy". At least with Google I know that if I don't upload the photos to them, they're not scanning my device. Just as a point of fact, there is zero point to encryption if Apple is able to access everything on icloud, which they can, because Apple doesn't allow you to do backups using a key that only you know. That's just another one of Apple's penny-pinching scams so they can upsell customers on extra icloud space for backups which are also "encrypted", yet Apple can read everything. Real privacy would mean real encryption, but then Apple couldn't do their upselling scam and also couldn't secretly scan all your personal stuff.
emodendroket 5y ago
Why would the government pressure them to have employees use their personal accounts at work? That doesn't make any sense.
loosescrews 5y ago
Sailfish is pretty great. Devices get industry leading software update support (the only device they ever dropped got 7 years of updates). Great UI. It even supports a fairly good Android emulation mode if you want to run some Android apps. You can shut down the Android emulator when not in use for power usage and peace of mind. EDIT: The devices are cheap too, but aren't slow. Typical cost is less than $250 including both the device and software license. The software is mostly open source, but there are a few licensed components. It is possible to use Sailfish without the proprietary bits for free.

EarlKing 5y ago

At this point you might as well buy a Pinephone. It's about as close as you can get to privacy-respecting. Just don't ask too much of it and try not to mind the price.

commoner 5y ago
Well, it's only $149 (or $199 for the higher-spec model with a dock), so it's affordably priced for a phone. One way to keep expectations in check is to treat the PinePhone as an upgrade to a feature phone, until the software options are more fleshed out.

busymom0 5y ago

> customer privacy I agree with the point of your comment but this particular post is regarding employees and seems like this has been in place for 3 years at least (tweet mentions it). I started moving away from Apple a few months ago, much before this Apple CSAM debacle. This is a pretty big move for me because I am a developer who makes apps for both iOS and MacOS, so I pretty much need Apple software for work. No longer buying iPhones or Macs. I was planning on upgrading to the Mac Mini with M1 chip later this fall but now I plan on building a hackintosh instead. I also no longer recommend Apple devices to friends/family. I got myself a cheap android phone which I have de-googled myself. I got this Android phone ($190 USD for a very good phone - 8GB ram, 12gb space): https://www.amazon.com/UMIDIGI-Unlocked-4150mAh-Capacity-Smartphone/dp/B09372DWKL/ref=sr_1_2?dchild=1&keywords=umidigi+a9+pro&qid=1628479572&sr=8-2 https://www.amazon.com/UMIDIGI-Unlocked-4150mAh-Capacity-Sma... I use Firefox for YouTube on it with the following add-ons: 1. uBlock Origin 2. Video Background Play Fix add-on This allows me to use YouTube as a background playback music player. And if needed, I use YouTube-dl to get the audio files and put them on the phone. You can check out several tutorials to de-google an android phone.

Johnny555 5y ago
No longer buying iPhones or Macs. I was planning on upgrading to the Mac Mini with M1 chip later this fall but now I plan on building a hackintosh instead. If you don't trust Apple, why build a Hackintosh and run Apple software?
- bnj 5y ago
  Not the parent you're replying to but it sounded from the post like it's because they develop apps on apple platforms and need them for work.
  - deleted 5y ago
    [deleted]
- artificial 5y ago
  >This is a pretty big move for me because I am a developer who makes apps for both iOS and MacOS, so I pretty much need Apple software for work. Looks like it's work related. Although perhaps they could just treat it as a work device and use personal devices for everything else.
- busymom0 5y ago
  I require MacOS for app development (I am an iOS/MacOS Developer) and it can only be done using MacOS. If I have a hackintosh (or maybe just build my own PC and run MacOS in a VM, then I don't have to buy Apple hardware.

jollybean 5y ago

The internal policy is invariably related to their views on ultra secrecy. Because they are 'Apple' and people want the jobs, there's acquiescence. When people leave it's probably a different story.

kylec 5y ago

The whole using-personal-iCloud-for-work thing isn't super new, I started at Apple ~2 years ago and it was the recommended practice back then

didericis 5y ago

It’s a downgrade, but the freedom of running linux on a phone is nice. I have a pinephone running sxmo, probably the nerdiest and least friendly ux possible. I’ve been using it sparingly, but intend to make a full time switch pretty soon. Having a phone with less capability and a focus on privacy will I think help make my phone less of a mental zapping appendage and more like the useful tool I remember these things being way back when. I guess I’m arguing why even bother with a full replacement? I know everyone else seems to be all in on mobile/leaving a modern app ecosystem feels like getting left behind, but maybe everyone else is wrong. Maybe it’s better to just step away from all the ultra modern attention grabbing bricks of pure unadulterated dopamine and switch to a hacky little portable computer when you need to look something up, or text someone, or call someone, or work on some text document you have or whatever. If you have a phone with even a crappy browser you have access to a ton of modern functionality anyway if you want it, minus all of the notification hell.

deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
jimbob45 5y ago
I’m the same way. For times I absolutely need an app (like banking or healthcare), I’ll boot up an old iPhone I keep around for that exact purpose. Otherwise, I keep no apps other than browsers on my current phone.
jraph 5y ago
I'm using a PinePhone right now and I hope I won't need to switch back to Android. I grew used to this freedom. However, I would recommend it only to the most determined people because many things don't work well. Forget GPS navigation. GPS does not get the correct location most of the time, AGPS only works through a hacky bash / python script. There is no good gps app anyway. The sms app on phosh is crashy and does not yet support MMS for which you have to use another hacky script (but I'm working on an alternative app). The phone often needs to be rebooted due to the modem sometimes not waking up. Calls are not high quality. No built in way to have a reliable alarm if the phone is not plugged. Photos are bad. The phone is generally slow for many modern web apps targeting more powerful hardware. The phone takes time to wake up for a call. I would not want to experience an emergency requiring to call someone. The phone is not waterproof so it will likely break if it takes a good rain. The on-screen time is not great though you can buy spare batteries which can largely change the game. Remember to set the sleep timer to 30s, which you need to do using the command line if you use Phosh, it helps a lot. A smoother transition could be to use a degoogled android phone, maybe with MicroG for cell/wifi based location and only using free software (from F-Droid). But you'll still rely on proprietary blob. I only ever used open source apps on Android and always refused to use apps like WhatsApp & its friends, which helped the transition to the PinePhone. On the flip side, the PinePhone is getting better every day and the ability to just buy a spare battery and a battery charger and swap them as needed without any tool is really nice. I typed this message on the PinePhone by the way. It's far from horrible despite my comment. edit: what I want to say is, wanting to migrate to free and privacy-friendly software is probably a good thing, but increase the chance it will work by not making it too hard. On the desktop, Linux distributions are delightful to use, free software phones are still pretty much work-in-progress unfortunately. The gap between a degoogled Android phone and a PinePhone is huge, probably way bigger than between an iPhone and a degoogled Android phone.

smartbit 5y ago

See previous discussion at Ask HN: What Apple alternatives are you switching to? https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28220968 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28220968

hanniabu 5y ago

> I’m slowly getting the impression that either there’s been a policy change at Apple in terms of customer privacy More likely that they never were for privacy and injury used it as a marketing ploy, putting on the mirage of being pro-privacy.

encryptluks2 5y ago
100% this. If you had said this a month ago you'd get viciously downvoted. People are finally waking up though.
azinman2 5y ago
I work for Apple. It’s not just marketing. It’s in every discussion in every feature. Even the current CSAM implementation is actually all about privacy if you read the details on how it’s implemented. The real question and concern is what happens once laws start getting passed that run counter to this. And that then won’t be just Apple’s problem at that point.
- brokenmachine 5y ago
  >Even the current CSAM implementation is actually all about privacy if you read the details on how it’s implemented. Lol, no.
  - azinman2 5y ago
    Read this: https://www.apple.com/child-safety/pdf/CSAM_Detection_Technical_Summary.pdf https://www.apple.com/child-safety/pdf/CSAM_Detection_Techni... and tell me what's not about privacy with this? The alternative is upload everything unencrypted to providers who then scan there, which is how everything else works.
    - brokenmachine 5y ago
      This is a ridiculous redefinition of the word, "privacy". I don't need to read your marketing manual when there's no getting around the fact you are normalizing on-device scanning on personal devices and automated secret reporting to the authorities, which means iphones have now become adversarial. Used to be that there was a clear delineation between a customer's device and a cloud server. Not anymore with Apple "privacy". At least with Google I know that if I don't upload the photos to them, they're not scanning my device. Just as a point of fact, there is zero point to encryption if Apple is able to access everything on icloud, which they can, because Apple doesn't allow you to do backups using a key that only you know. That's just another one of Apple's penny-pinching scams so they can upsell customers on extra icloud space for backups which are also "encrypted", yet Apple can read everything. Real privacy would mean real encryption, but then Apple couldn't do their upselling scam and also couldn't secretly scan all your personal stuff.

emodendroket 5y ago

Why would the government pressure them to have employees use their personal accounts at work? That doesn't make any sense.

loosescrews 5y ago

Sailfish is pretty great. Devices get industry leading software update support (the only device they ever dropped got 7 years of updates). Great UI. It even supports a fairly good Android emulation mode if you want to run some Android apps. You can shut down the Android emulator when not in use for power usage and peace of mind. EDIT: The devices are cheap too, but aren't slow. Typical cost is less than $250 including both the device and software license. The software is mostly open source, but there are a few licensed components. It is possible to use Sailfish without the proprietary bits for free.