4 ms·

It's very likely the pressure is coming from Visa and MasterCard (especially MC) rather than at the level of CCbill.

by Mindwipe 5y ago

Ansil849 5y ago
How so?
- Mindwipe 5y ago
  Because CCbill can do nothing if MasterCard puts pressure on them, and MasterCard are putting pressure on adult content businesses and have been for years.
  - Ansil849 5y ago
    I guess I just don't understand how payment processing works in this domain: are you saying MasterCard is basically saying that their credit cards cannot be used to purchase adult services such as these?
    - lotsofpulp 5y ago
      Mastercard (and Visa and AmEx and Discover) do not want their networks to be used by merchants selling pornography. I would think the only reason is the chargeback/fraud rates are too high in this type of business, as well as not wanting to be involved in a business where there may be a high chance of illegal content. https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2021-04-14/mastercard-rewrites-rules-for-banks-backing-pornography-sellers https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2021-04-14/mastercar... >The banks will now have to ensure that sellers require “clear, unambiguous and documented consent” in adult content, the payments network said in a blog post Wednesday. The firms will also be required to ensure websites document the age and verify the identity of anyone depicted in pictures and videos as well as those uploading the content. >“The banks that connect merchants to our network will need to certify that the seller of adult content has effective controls in place to monitor, block and, where necessary, take down all illegal content,” John Verdeschi, Mastercard’s senior vice president of customer engagement and performance, said in the post. Allowing merchants to sell pornography is probably not worth the hassle for the card networks.
      - _moof 5y ago
        Sounds like MasterCard is in fact fine with merchants selling pornography, but the merchants aren't willing to do so on MasterCard's extremely reasonable terms.
        Mindwipe 5y ago
        Lol, such as the people involved can't be dressed as vampires. "Extremely reasonable"
        mijoharas 5y ago
        Have you got a reference to that? the terms that were quoted in the grandparent comment do seem extremely reasonable: >The banks will now have to ensure that sellers require “clear, unambiguous and documented consent” in adult content, the payments network said in a blog post Wednesday. The firms will also be required to ensure websites document the age and verify the identity of anyone depicted in pictures and videos as well as those uploading the content. >“The banks that connect merchants to our network will need to certify that the seller of adult content has effective controls in place to monitor, block and, where necessary, take down all illegal content,” John Verdeschi, Mastercard’s senior vice president of customer engagement and performance, said in the post. The thing I don't understand is if those quoted terms above are the rules that onlyfans is falling foul of, then wouldn't it be easier to build a tracked system for documenting consent e.t.c. rather than banning things. That would seem like a better strategy for OnlyFans since it seems like their entire business model will be in jeopardy without this. I wonder if they want to do this, and then turn around and say "we've listened to the community and we're gonna integrate this consent system instead" so it won't be treated so negatively or something?
        Mindwipe 5y ago
        The grandparent comment is a tiny fragment of the actual rules. Mastercard's BRAM document is not publicly available I believe.
      - 5y ago
    - hhh 5y ago
      Yes. The same happened to Pornhub too.
    - tadfisher 5y ago
      MasterCard has two customers: card issuers (banks, usually) and merchants (through payment processors like CCBill, usually). MasterCard is saying that CCBill will lose access to the MasterCard payment network if they serve customers dealing in sexually explicit content.
      - deleted 5y ago
        [deleted]
    - microtherion 5y ago
      I suspect that their aversion to adult services payments might be based less on moral qualms than on elevated levels of chargebacks with said services. "Why, honey! I have ABSOLUTELY NO IDEA why there is a charge for a Swedish Penis Pump on our Credit Card bill. An evil hacker must have gotten ahold of my card. I shall have the charges reversed at once!", etc.
      - zelag 5y ago
        Swedish penis pump?
        microtherion 5y ago
        I'm afraid I'm dating myself a bit here with my cultural references: https://youtu.be/Yh6kbQnOAg4?t=35 https://youtu.be/Yh6kbQnOAg4?t=35
      - Mindwipe 5y ago
        > I suspect that their aversion to adult services payments might be based less on moral qualms than on elevated levels of chargebacks with said services. Mastercard demands a lot of keyword blocks that are pretty definitely too obscure to be chargeback related.
nonameiguess 5y ago
This doesn't make any sense at all. Pick a subscription porn site right now, any one, and go try to sign up. You don't have to follow through, just get to the payment page and don't click submit. They all take Visa and MasterCard. CCbill itself couldn't exist if Visa and MasterCard didn't let it process payments for porn.
- throwaway5752 5y ago
  The porn industry is regulated, believe it or not. What happens is that financial system support is withdrawn from places that provide avenues for exploitation of children or victims of human traffickers. I expect OF didn't think they could meet recordkeeping requirements or assume the liabilities of doing so incorrectly.
- TillE 5y ago
  Yeah exactly. PornHub is the exception, not the rule - they were taking card payments right up until the recent news coverage about illegal content.
- Mindwipe 5y ago
  It's not about a flat yes/no to porn, it's about the level of arbitrary rules, shifting policies, banned keywords etc etc that Mastercard inflict on any businesses that include adult content, that make operating a business nearly impossible. These rules are getting worse because MC's head has decided to give in to the scaremongering by far right religious group Exodus Cry.

It's very likely the pressure is coming from Visa and MasterCard (especially MC) rather than at the level of CCbill.

Ansil849 5y ago

How so?

Mindwipe 5y ago
Because CCbill can do nothing if MasterCard puts pressure on them, and MasterCard are putting pressure on adult content businesses and have been for years.
- Ansil849 5y ago
  I guess I just don't understand how payment processing works in this domain: are you saying MasterCard is basically saying that their credit cards cannot be used to purchase adult services such as these?
  - lotsofpulp 5y ago
    Mastercard (and Visa and AmEx and Discover) do not want their networks to be used by merchants selling pornography. I would think the only reason is the chargeback/fraud rates are too high in this type of business, as well as not wanting to be involved in a business where there may be a high chance of illegal content. https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2021-04-14/mastercard-rewrites-rules-for-banks-backing-pornography-sellers https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2021-04-14/mastercar... >The banks will now have to ensure that sellers require “clear, unambiguous and documented consent” in adult content, the payments network said in a blog post Wednesday. The firms will also be required to ensure websites document the age and verify the identity of anyone depicted in pictures and videos as well as those uploading the content. >“The banks that connect merchants to our network will need to certify that the seller of adult content has effective controls in place to monitor, block and, where necessary, take down all illegal content,” John Verdeschi, Mastercard’s senior vice president of customer engagement and performance, said in the post. Allowing merchants to sell pornography is probably not worth the hassle for the card networks.
    - _moof 5y ago
      Sounds like MasterCard is in fact fine with merchants selling pornography, but the merchants aren't willing to do so on MasterCard's extremely reasonable terms.
      - Mindwipe 5y ago
        Lol, such as the people involved can't be dressed as vampires. "Extremely reasonable"
        mijoharas 5y ago
        Have you got a reference to that? the terms that were quoted in the grandparent comment do seem extremely reasonable: >The banks will now have to ensure that sellers require “clear, unambiguous and documented consent” in adult content, the payments network said in a blog post Wednesday. The firms will also be required to ensure websites document the age and verify the identity of anyone depicted in pictures and videos as well as those uploading the content. >“The banks that connect merchants to our network will need to certify that the seller of adult content has effective controls in place to monitor, block and, where necessary, take down all illegal content,” John Verdeschi, Mastercard’s senior vice president of customer engagement and performance, said in the post. The thing I don't understand is if those quoted terms above are the rules that onlyfans is falling foul of, then wouldn't it be easier to build a tracked system for documenting consent e.t.c. rather than banning things. That would seem like a better strategy for OnlyFans since it seems like their entire business model will be in jeopardy without this. I wonder if they want to do this, and then turn around and say "we've listened to the community and we're gonna integrate this consent system instead" so it won't be treated so negatively or something?
        Mindwipe 5y ago
        The grandparent comment is a tiny fragment of the actual rules. Mastercard's BRAM document is not publicly available I believe.
    - 5y ago
  - hhh 5y ago
    Yes. The same happened to Pornhub too.
  - tadfisher 5y ago
    MasterCard has two customers: card issuers (banks, usually) and merchants (through payment processors like CCBill, usually). MasterCard is saying that CCBill will lose access to the MasterCard payment network if they serve customers dealing in sexually explicit content.
    - deleted 5y ago
      [deleted]
  - microtherion 5y ago
    I suspect that their aversion to adult services payments might be based less on moral qualms than on elevated levels of chargebacks with said services. "Why, honey! I have ABSOLUTELY NO IDEA why there is a charge for a Swedish Penis Pump on our Credit Card bill. An evil hacker must have gotten ahold of my card. I shall have the charges reversed at once!", etc.
    - zelag 5y ago
      Swedish penis pump?
      - microtherion 5y ago
        I'm afraid I'm dating myself a bit here with my cultural references: https://youtu.be/Yh6kbQnOAg4?t=35 https://youtu.be/Yh6kbQnOAg4?t=35
    - Mindwipe 5y ago
      > I suspect that their aversion to adult services payments might be based less on moral qualms than on elevated levels of chargebacks with said services. Mastercard demands a lot of keyword blocks that are pretty definitely too obscure to be chargeback related.

nonameiguess 5y ago

This doesn't make any sense at all. Pick a subscription porn site right now, any one, and go try to sign up. You don't have to follow through, just get to the payment page and don't click submit. They all take Visa and MasterCard. CCbill itself couldn't exist if Visa and MasterCard didn't let it process payments for porn.

throwaway5752 5y ago
The porn industry is regulated, believe it or not. What happens is that financial system support is withdrawn from places that provide avenues for exploitation of children or victims of human traffickers. I expect OF didn't think they could meet recordkeeping requirements or assume the liabilities of doing so incorrectly.
TillE 5y ago
Yeah exactly. PornHub is the exception, not the rule - they were taking card payments right up until the recent news coverage about illegal content.
Mindwipe 5y ago
It's not about a flat yes/no to porn, it's about the level of arbitrary rules, shifting policies, banned keywords etc etc that Mastercard inflict on any businesses that include adult content, that make operating a business nearly impossible. These rules are getting worse because MC's head has decided to give in to the scaremongering by far right religious group Exodus Cry.