4 ms·

I would expect Apple to say the same thing if the CCP proposed a system of scanning devices last month. I fail to see how this system changes the calculus for

by slg 5y ago

I would expect Apple to say the same thing if the CCP proposed a system of scanning devices last month. I fail to see how this system changes the calculus for how Apple will deal with authoritarian governments. If Apple could stand up to them before this system, why can't they stand up to them with this system?

tines 5y ago
Tin-foil hat time: Who's to say that they could stand up to them before this system? The system itself could have been proposed by the CCP in the first place. I'll take my hat off now.
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
cmelbye 5y ago
Apple doesn't stand up to authoritarian governments. They give direct access of their systems to the US and Chinese governments already.
- 99mans 5y ago
  This. We've known Apple is backdoored since at least 2013 with Snowden revelations. Why are people still debating this nearly a decade later? Apple products ARE NOT PRIVATE.
foerbert 5y ago
The difference is the ease with which they can demur. Before, it would be a whole heck of a lot of new, additional work. They also have the problem of actually introducing it without being noticed, or having to come up with some cover for the new behavior. Now? Well now it's real simple. It will even conveniently not expose the actual images it's checking for. Apple now has significantly less ability to rationally reject the request based on the effort and difficulty of the matter. Even Apple's own reasons to reject the request have decreased. It would have legitimately cost them more to fulfill this request before, even if China did want to play hardball. Now, they have greater incentive to go along with it.
- mrtranscendence 5y ago
  > The difference is the ease with which they can demur. If Apple can be cowed by China into adding fake CSAM hashes by threat of banning iPhone sales, they could be cowed to surveil Chinese citizens in the search for subversive material. It's no skin off China's back if it's harder for Apple -- they'll either make the demand or they won't. This changes basically nothing.
  - foerbert 5y ago
    I think that's a too simplistic view. It's kinda true, but ignores how humans really work. Apple will be pushed around to a degree, but there will be limits. The harder the ask now the less China can ask later. And the more Apple can protest about the difficulty and impossibility and other consequences they will face, the more likely China is to back off. Both sides want to have their cake and eat it too, and will compromise to make it basically work. But if China makes demands so excessive they get Apple to cut ties, China loses. Apple has the money, demand, customer loyalty, and clout to make things real uncomfortable. Apple would have to pay a hefty price, but if any company can do it... it's them. So I don't think it's fair to say that no matter what China will just demand whatever whims strike it each day and everybody will play ball or gtfo. That just isn't how shit works.
    - mthoms 5y ago
      Apple does have some degree of leverage over the CCP too. I realize its not possible today... but in 3-5 years, Apple may be in a position to move some/all of their manufacturing elsewhere. The direct job losses are one obvious problem for the CCP but a company like Apple saying "We're moving production to Taiwan/Vietnam/US because of security risks in China" would be catastrophic for the (tech) manufacturing industry as a whole in China. No sane Western based CEO will want to be seen taking that security gamble. Do I think Apple would do that and forgo the massive Chinese smartphone market? That's another story.
- slg 5y ago
  As far as I'm aware, this system is not new. It is only moving from the cloud to the local device. If the cloud was already compromised, which it seems like it would be in your logic since all the same reasoning applies, I don't understand the complaints about it moving locally. In my mind there are two possible ways to view this. We could trust Apple last month and we can trust them today. We couldn't trust Apple last month and we can't trust them today. I don't understand the mindset that we could trust Apple last month and we can't trust them today.
vorpalhex 5y ago
Err, Apple allows the CCP to scan iCloud already, and did so willingly and actively.

by slg 5y ago

tines 5y ago

Tin-foil hat time: Who's to say that they could stand up to them before this system? The system itself could have been proposed by the CCP in the first place. I'll take my hat off now.

deleted 5y ago
[deleted]

cmelbye 5y ago

Apple doesn't stand up to authoritarian governments. They give direct access of their systems to the US and Chinese governments already.

99mans 5y ago
This. We've known Apple is backdoored since at least 2013 with Snowden revelations. Why are people still debating this nearly a decade later? Apple products ARE NOT PRIVATE.

foerbert 5y ago

The difference is the ease with which they can demur. Before, it would be a whole heck of a lot of new, additional work. They also have the problem of actually introducing it without being noticed, or having to come up with some cover for the new behavior. Now? Well now it's real simple. It will even conveniently not expose the actual images it's checking for. Apple now has significantly less ability to rationally reject the request based on the effort and difficulty of the matter. Even Apple's own reasons to reject the request have decreased. It would have legitimately cost them more to fulfill this request before, even if China did want to play hardball. Now, they have greater incentive to go along with it.

mrtranscendence 5y ago
> The difference is the ease with which they can demur. If Apple can be cowed by China into adding fake CSAM hashes by threat of banning iPhone sales, they could be cowed to surveil Chinese citizens in the search for subversive material. It's no skin off China's back if it's harder for Apple -- they'll either make the demand or they won't. This changes basically nothing.
- foerbert 5y ago
  I think that's a too simplistic view. It's kinda true, but ignores how humans really work. Apple will be pushed around to a degree, but there will be limits. The harder the ask now the less China can ask later. And the more Apple can protest about the difficulty and impossibility and other consequences they will face, the more likely China is to back off. Both sides want to have their cake and eat it too, and will compromise to make it basically work. But if China makes demands so excessive they get Apple to cut ties, China loses. Apple has the money, demand, customer loyalty, and clout to make things real uncomfortable. Apple would have to pay a hefty price, but if any company can do it... it's them. So I don't think it's fair to say that no matter what China will just demand whatever whims strike it each day and everybody will play ball or gtfo. That just isn't how shit works.
  - mthoms 5y ago
    Apple does have some degree of leverage over the CCP too. I realize its not possible today... but in 3-5 years, Apple may be in a position to move some/all of their manufacturing elsewhere. The direct job losses are one obvious problem for the CCP but a company like Apple saying "We're moving production to Taiwan/Vietnam/US because of security risks in China" would be catastrophic for the (tech) manufacturing industry as a whole in China. No sane Western based CEO will want to be seen taking that security gamble. Do I think Apple would do that and forgo the massive Chinese smartphone market? That's another story.
slg 5y ago
As far as I'm aware, this system is not new. It is only moving from the cloud to the local device. If the cloud was already compromised, which it seems like it would be in your logic since all the same reasoning applies, I don't understand the complaints about it moving locally. In my mind there are two possible ways to view this. We could trust Apple last month and we can trust them today. We couldn't trust Apple last month and we can't trust them today. I don't understand the mindset that we could trust Apple last month and we can't trust them today.

vorpalhex 5y ago

Err, Apple allows the CCP to scan iCloud already, and did so willingly and actively.