5 ms·

As Dutch born but moved to US 10 years ago, this article sums up everything I don't like about The Netherlands. He speaks about all the positive notes but there

As Dutch born but moved to US 10 years ago, this article sums up everything I don't like about The Netherlands. He speaks about all the positive notes but there are plenty of downsides to it as well. The biggest one is that if you don't fit the Dutch mold, it feels like having an overbearing parent at your back at all times. If you do fit the Dutch mold, it is the greatest country to live in. Some more negative aspects. There are limits to parking spots per home. There are neighborhoods were you can only have a single car per family. There are no more parking spots. Expecting visitors? Sorry. The Dutch government prefers people to take public transportation which generally is excellent but they make owning a car expensive and complicated (like parking example above). You need building licenses for almost any change to your home - outside or inside. You want to create an extra bathroom?Apply for a license. Want to remove a tree from your yard? Well good luck with that. The Netherlands is one of the most beautifully urban-designed places in the world for sure but it comes at a price. Some people love it and some people do not.

the-dude 5y ago
This is not accurate. Although I don't own a car, my neighbors do and there is enough space left for visitors. You don't need a license for every change to your house. For a tree, depends on the tree.
Vinnl 5y ago
> Expecting visitors? Sorry. Of course this is not "Sorry, no can do" but a "sorry, they'll have to come by public transport, park their car at the edge of the city and do the last part by public transport/bicycle/foot, or park their car in one of the free spots that's available because some neighbours are away with their cars".
Aachen 5y ago
Do people in the center of big cities in the USA have multiple private parking spots right out front? (I genuinely don't know but I'll make an assumption.) Perhaps in smaller cities they might have made it a priority over the decades while the city grew, but in something like NYC I can't imagine they didn't run into practicality issues. Do people there not expect visitors ever? Of course they do. You hop on the metro, I assume at least. Same here, and if you live outside of a big city's center, you'll find it's not only free to park anywhere, it's actually annoyingly hard to do normal things without a car. I was in Limburg a few weeks ago for 8 days, alone without a driver's license to use said car parked out front (the thing expired, I didn't notice). Let me tell you I didn't see many places and family had to pick me up or I'd have had hours of public transport time for a 20 minute drive to their place.
- seibelj 5y ago
  Most cities in America are very car-focused, including metropolises like Los Angeles. San Francisco also needs cars, at least uber, given the downtown transit system is a joke for true commuting. The only cities in the US with actual transit systems that can 100% replace cars without being super annoying / delayed are NYC (and larger commuting areas like Jersey City), Boston, and Chicago. I know people in Boston who have lived in the farther-out neighborhoods (Jamaica Plain, Roslindale, etc.) completely without cars and it is do-able. Within those three cities, there is still a lot of parking, and if you need more dedicated space there are garages with reasonable monthly rates. My understanding in places like Amsterdam the parking / driving situation is vastly different.
usemigrant 5y ago
As a US-born immigrant to the Netherlands 10 years ago, I'll differ slightly. Bureaucracy here IS real, but I observe a relentless pragmatism among individuals. Rules are not, I've observed, sacred. The Dutch are inveterate jaywalkers, literally and figuratively. Every Dutch (and American, to be fair) homeowner at some point will have to make decisions about what work to do by the book, and what gets done "zwart" (yes, "black" as in market. No permissions sought and Usually cash "under the table" too.) At least in my experience and observation in the Hague, anything non-structural within the building envelope is done this way by default. Digression: the politics of migration here are far from settled and this is one implicated area. Dodging permits and taxes is often stereotyped here as behavior of migrants from the eastern EU working in bulding trades but my native-born Dutch contractor was surprised when I told him I wanted the finish work in our house done on the books with a factuur, taxes paid. Even for things outside the building envelope, there are substantial gray areas where one could seek permission (and thus denial) but one need not. Honestly the thing that rang most false to me in this article, though, is the bit about parallel parking competence. My experience is resolutely the opposite to the point of ridicule. After a decade I can count on two hands the number of successful parallel parking attempts I have observed (i.e. made by locals, not me) in The Hague requiring 3 or fewer moves. 7, specifically. I keep score because on my bike I am often obstructed by people attempting to park and it baffles me how people who do this so regularly can be so bad at it.
- joelbluminator 5y ago
  How is that difference than the U.S? People don't try to dodge taxes there?
  - t0mas88 5y ago
    It's exactly the same everywhere. Taxes are rarely paid in full on cash kind of jobs, because there is no way to enforce it.
  - usemigrant 5y ago
    It's not different in this respect, which was my point: the reason planning works (or doesn't) in NL isn't due to deeply ingrained orderly, rule-following cultural norms at the individual level relative to the US. I think the central thrust of the article - which I agree with - is that what works in NL works because there is political buy-in from the voting public for meaningful restrictions on the activity of real-estate developers with specific, desired outcomes.
N1H1L 5y ago
Considering how rampant and meaningless HOAs are I am not really sure things are better here too. My co-worker here has been fighting a losing battle for the past year to get solar panels on his roof.
- t0mas88 5y ago
  That's already much more restrictive than even inner-city rules in the Netherlands. Solar panels don't require permission, only bigger changes that affect neighbors do.
  - the-dude 5y ago
    HOA -> Vereniging van eigenaren. I assume one needs to reach an agreement.
    - t0mas88 5y ago
      Except that the VVE thing in the Netherlands is only customary for apartment buildings (and then limited to only within the building) while in some places in the US the HOAs have grown to control neighbourhoods of detached housing.
  - N1H1L 5y ago
    Apparently the solar panels destroy the "look" of the neighborhood.
t0mas88 5y ago
This "The Dutch do X" kind of story is almost always taken way too extreme. Same as the main article, the author describes many things about the Netherlands which don't apply to that extreme in practice at all. The country is tiny (3x smaller than the state of New York) but differences are huge by area. For example the "1 (or 1.5) car per house" thing you describe only applies to some neighborhoods in specific cities, people that live there choose to live with that but it's definitely not a country wide thing. As a counter example I live 20 minutes outside Amsterdam, can park both my cars on my own driveway plus more than 10 visitor spots less than 50m walk from my house. As for the permission to build: That only applies to the outside of the house never the inside, so the bathroom example doesn't exist. And even on the outside it's not for small things like a dormer. The practical restrictions are not that different from what most HOAs in US suburbs put in their contracts. And if you live outside a city you don't have any of these restrictions, because there are no neighbors to be inconvenienced.
MomoXenosaga 5y ago
The Netherlands is a complex, densely populated country with more ethnic and religious diversity than NYC. It's an overbearing nanny state or anarchy.

the-dude 5y ago

This is not accurate. Although I don't own a car, my neighbors do and there is enough space left for visitors. You don't need a license for every change to your house. For a tree, depends on the tree.

Vinnl 5y ago

> Expecting visitors? Sorry. Of course this is not "Sorry, no can do" but a "sorry, they'll have to come by public transport, park their car at the edge of the city and do the last part by public transport/bicycle/foot, or park their car in one of the free spots that's available because some neighbours are away with their cars".

Aachen 5y ago

Do people in the center of big cities in the USA have multiple private parking spots right out front? (I genuinely don't know but I'll make an assumption.) Perhaps in smaller cities they might have made it a priority over the decades while the city grew, but in something like NYC I can't imagine they didn't run into practicality issues. Do people there not expect visitors ever? Of course they do. You hop on the metro, I assume at least. Same here, and if you live outside of a big city's center, you'll find it's not only free to park anywhere, it's actually annoyingly hard to do normal things without a car. I was in Limburg a few weeks ago for 8 days, alone without a driver's license to use said car parked out front (the thing expired, I didn't notice). Let me tell you I didn't see many places and family had to pick me up or I'd have had hours of public transport time for a 20 minute drive to their place.

seibelj 5y ago
Most cities in America are very car-focused, including metropolises like Los Angeles. San Francisco also needs cars, at least uber, given the downtown transit system is a joke for true commuting. The only cities in the US with actual transit systems that can 100% replace cars without being super annoying / delayed are NYC (and larger commuting areas like Jersey City), Boston, and Chicago. I know people in Boston who have lived in the farther-out neighborhoods (Jamaica Plain, Roslindale, etc.) completely without cars and it is do-able. Within those three cities, there is still a lot of parking, and if you need more dedicated space there are garages with reasonable monthly rates. My understanding in places like Amsterdam the parking / driving situation is vastly different.

usemigrant 5y ago

As a US-born immigrant to the Netherlands 10 years ago, I'll differ slightly. Bureaucracy here IS real, but I observe a relentless pragmatism among individuals. Rules are not, I've observed, sacred. The Dutch are inveterate jaywalkers, literally and figuratively. Every Dutch (and American, to be fair) homeowner at some point will have to make decisions about what work to do by the book, and what gets done "zwart" (yes, "black" as in market. No permissions sought and Usually cash "under the table" too.) At least in my experience and observation in the Hague, anything non-structural within the building envelope is done this way by default. Digression: the politics of migration here are far from settled and this is one implicated area. Dodging permits and taxes is often stereotyped here as behavior of migrants from the eastern EU working in bulding trades but my native-born Dutch contractor was surprised when I told him I wanted the finish work in our house done on the books with a factuur, taxes paid. Even for things outside the building envelope, there are substantial gray areas where one could seek permission (and thus denial) but one need not. Honestly the thing that rang most false to me in this article, though, is the bit about parallel parking competence. My experience is resolutely the opposite to the point of ridicule. After a decade I can count on two hands the number of successful parallel parking attempts I have observed (i.e. made by locals, not me) in The Hague requiring 3 or fewer moves. 7, specifically. I keep score because on my bike I am often obstructed by people attempting to park and it baffles me how people who do this so regularly can be so bad at it.

joelbluminator 5y ago
How is that difference than the U.S? People don't try to dodge taxes there?
- t0mas88 5y ago
  It's exactly the same everywhere. Taxes are rarely paid in full on cash kind of jobs, because there is no way to enforce it.
- usemigrant 5y ago
  It's not different in this respect, which was my point: the reason planning works (or doesn't) in NL isn't due to deeply ingrained orderly, rule-following cultural norms at the individual level relative to the US. I think the central thrust of the article - which I agree with - is that what works in NL works because there is political buy-in from the voting public for meaningful restrictions on the activity of real-estate developers with specific, desired outcomes.

N1H1L 5y ago

Considering how rampant and meaningless HOAs are I am not really sure things are better here too. My co-worker here has been fighting a losing battle for the past year to get solar panels on his roof.

t0mas88 5y ago
That's already much more restrictive than even inner-city rules in the Netherlands. Solar panels don't require permission, only bigger changes that affect neighbors do.
- the-dude 5y ago
  HOA -> Vereniging van eigenaren. I assume one needs to reach an agreement.
  - t0mas88 5y ago
    Except that the VVE thing in the Netherlands is only customary for apartment buildings (and then limited to only within the building) while in some places in the US the HOAs have grown to control neighbourhoods of detached housing.
- N1H1L 5y ago
  Apparently the solar panels destroy the "look" of the neighborhood.

t0mas88 5y ago

This "The Dutch do X" kind of story is almost always taken way too extreme. Same as the main article, the author describes many things about the Netherlands which don't apply to that extreme in practice at all. The country is tiny (3x smaller than the state of New York) but differences are huge by area. For example the "1 (or 1.5) car per house" thing you describe only applies to some neighborhoods in specific cities, people that live there choose to live with that but it's definitely not a country wide thing. As a counter example I live 20 minutes outside Amsterdam, can park both my cars on my own driveway plus more than 10 visitor spots less than 50m walk from my house. As for the permission to build: That only applies to the outside of the house never the inside, so the bathroom example doesn't exist. And even on the outside it's not for small things like a dormer. The practical restrictions are not that different from what most HOAs in US suburbs put in their contracts. And if you live outside a city you don't have any of these restrictions, because there are no neighbors to be inconvenienced.

MomoXenosaga 5y ago

The Netherlands is a complex, densely populated country with more ethnic and religious diversity than NYC. It's an overbearing nanny state or anarchy.