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Pretty much everyone understands that computer chips are needed for everything these days though. The population can relate just fine. It's just there's no one

Pretty much everyone understands that computer chips are needed for everything these days though. The population can relate just fine. It's just there's no one rich and powerful who wants to make the investment that is making it an issue.

Johnny555 5y ago
I'm not sure that the population can relate to building a semiconductor ecosystem in the USA -- when a state gives incentives to bring movie production there, people think "Well look at all of those jobs and movies give our state great exposure", but when the government wants to spend billions helping to build a next-gen fab plant here, then it's like "wait, I paid thousands of dollars for my phone and computer, why are we paying them to build plants here, don't we pay them enough!?" You may say "But semiconductors are used in far more devices than phones and computers", but I'm not sure the average person realizes that. Well maybe they are now when they can't buy the car they want because it's delayed due to semiconductor availability.
- l33t2328 5y ago
  I’m pretty sure the average person knows computer chips are important. > wait, I paid thousands of dollars for my phone and computer, why are we paying them to build plants here, don't we pay them enough This line of reasoning isn’t generally extended to any other area of production, so I don’t see why it would apply here.
  - Johnny555 5y ago
    Yet there's plenty of people that speak out specifically against semiconductor subsidies: https://foundersbroadsheet.com/does-the-semiconductor-industry-need-government-subsidies/ https://foundersbroadsheet.com/does-the-semiconductor-indust... Supply and demand shocks will work themselves out fairly quickly if just left to market forces without government involvement. But a large section of the US population is under the delusion that if there’s a problem, only government can fix it. https://thehill.com/opinion/international/560338-government-semiconductor-subsidies-the-case-for-limits https://thehill.com/opinion/international/560338-government-... One part of the legislation, the CHIPS Act, allocates $52 billion to subsidize the construction of new chip factories in the United States. Officials believe it could result in seven to 10 new U.S. factories. Although a national security case can be made for it, too much subsidy can do more harm than good.
- namelessoracle 5y ago
  People understand just fine. They understand that pretty much everything they own these days has a computer chip inside it. Using a simple example people understand they can't get consumer electronics like Xboxs, Playstations, and Switches because of the electronics shortage. People understand there is a car part shortage due to electronics. These aren't high information people talking to me about this. It's understood there's a chip shortage right now by the general population. People are fine with and nobody really argues that America should support a steel industry. Frame the argument the same way and most people would be ok with supporting a technology infrastructure local to America. The other issue that hasn't been touched on is that a chip subsidy will probably only benefit 1 or 2 states, where as agriculture and other commodity level subsidies get spread out so there's less political will to make it happen. (along with a zero sum attitude in politics that if X state is getting money it means my state is not getting that money) It's actually a pretty critical geopolitical issue, sense there's a real chance that China makes a move on Taiwan soon (soon being within the next 10 years), which will result in either the destruction of alot of the chip infrastructure or China with global control over chip infrastructure. I'm kinda surprised countries like Japan and Korea aren't making moves to address this by starting their own fabs. (Maybe there are?)
  - bradknowles 5y ago
    Note that Samsung is frequently considered to be the second best chip fabrication company in the world, behind TSMC. That’s part of why Samsung is the single biggest supplier of technology to Apple. Canon is the other major vendor of chip lithography equipment, but I don’t know where their EUV processes are, or what the major chip manufacturing companies are in Japan that they would be sourcing for.
  - tooltalk 5y ago
    Samsung of South Korea already has multiple leading-edge fabs in South Korea and Austin, Texas. Remember when Tim Apple defended their Chinese outsourcing practices, claiming that the engine of the iPhones were made in America in a rare CBS interview years ago? Tim Apple switched to TSMC in Taiwan shortly after that. The company also announced a plan to spend $110+B in capex over next 10 years to expand their busines. Japan really has no presence in this business. Japanese automotive chip makers like Renesas had fabbed chips in-house, but decided to outsource everything to TSMC back in 2018. In fact, most automotive chip makers, such as Infineon and NXP also use TSMC -- the company has something like 70% of the market share. Now, the real issue here is that the automotive chip business is fairly low-tech and low-margin business. TSMC has been around and has been making MCUs used in cars for a long time, but it seems others are less willing to jump in b/c it's going to take years to recoup their investment.

Johnny555 5y ago

I'm not sure that the population can relate to building a semiconductor ecosystem in the USA -- when a state gives incentives to bring movie production there, people think "Well look at all of those jobs and movies give our state great exposure", but when the government wants to spend billions helping to build a next-gen fab plant here, then it's like "wait, I paid thousands of dollars for my phone and computer, why are we paying them to build plants here, don't we pay them enough!?" You may say "But semiconductors are used in far more devices than phones and computers", but I'm not sure the average person realizes that. Well maybe they are now when they can't buy the car they want because it's delayed due to semiconductor availability.

l33t2328 5y ago
I’m pretty sure the average person knows computer chips are important. > wait, I paid thousands of dollars for my phone and computer, why are we paying them to build plants here, don't we pay them enough This line of reasoning isn’t generally extended to any other area of production, so I don’t see why it would apply here.
- Johnny555 5y ago
  Yet there's plenty of people that speak out specifically against semiconductor subsidies: https://foundersbroadsheet.com/does-the-semiconductor-industry-need-government-subsidies/ https://foundersbroadsheet.com/does-the-semiconductor-indust... Supply and demand shocks will work themselves out fairly quickly if just left to market forces without government involvement. But a large section of the US population is under the delusion that if there’s a problem, only government can fix it. https://thehill.com/opinion/international/560338-government-semiconductor-subsidies-the-case-for-limits https://thehill.com/opinion/international/560338-government-... One part of the legislation, the CHIPS Act, allocates $52 billion to subsidize the construction of new chip factories in the United States. Officials believe it could result in seven to 10 new U.S. factories. Although a national security case can be made for it, too much subsidy can do more harm than good.
namelessoracle 5y ago
People understand just fine. They understand that pretty much everything they own these days has a computer chip inside it. Using a simple example people understand they can't get consumer electronics like Xboxs, Playstations, and Switches because of the electronics shortage. People understand there is a car part shortage due to electronics. These aren't high information people talking to me about this. It's understood there's a chip shortage right now by the general population. People are fine with and nobody really argues that America should support a steel industry. Frame the argument the same way and most people would be ok with supporting a technology infrastructure local to America. The other issue that hasn't been touched on is that a chip subsidy will probably only benefit 1 or 2 states, where as agriculture and other commodity level subsidies get spread out so there's less political will to make it happen. (along with a zero sum attitude in politics that if X state is getting money it means my state is not getting that money) It's actually a pretty critical geopolitical issue, sense there's a real chance that China makes a move on Taiwan soon (soon being within the next 10 years), which will result in either the destruction of alot of the chip infrastructure or China with global control over chip infrastructure. I'm kinda surprised countries like Japan and Korea aren't making moves to address this by starting their own fabs. (Maybe there are?)
- bradknowles 5y ago
  Note that Samsung is frequently considered to be the second best chip fabrication company in the world, behind TSMC. That’s part of why Samsung is the single biggest supplier of technology to Apple. Canon is the other major vendor of chip lithography equipment, but I don’t know where their EUV processes are, or what the major chip manufacturing companies are in Japan that they would be sourcing for.
- tooltalk 5y ago
  Samsung of South Korea already has multiple leading-edge fabs in South Korea and Austin, Texas. Remember when Tim Apple defended their Chinese outsourcing practices, claiming that the engine of the iPhones were made in America in a rare CBS interview years ago? Tim Apple switched to TSMC in Taiwan shortly after that. The company also announced a plan to spend $110+B in capex over next 10 years to expand their busines. Japan really has no presence in this business. Japanese automotive chip makers like Renesas had fabbed chips in-house, but decided to outsource everything to TSMC back in 2018. In fact, most automotive chip makers, such as Infineon and NXP also use TSMC -- the company has something like 70% of the market share. Now, the real issue here is that the automotive chip business is fairly low-tech and low-margin business. TSMC has been around and has been making MCUs used in cars for a long time, but it seems others are less willing to jump in b/c it's going to take years to recoup their investment.