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> Don’t call yourself a programmer: “Programmer” sounds like “anomalously high-cost peon who types some mumbo-jumbo into some other mumbo-jumbo.” That's a perf

> Don’t call yourself a programmer: “Programmer” sounds like “anomalously high-cost peon who types some mumbo-jumbo into some other mumbo-jumbo.” That's a perfect description of what I do. I'm proudly a Programmer.

BulgarianIdiot 5y ago
Yeah, WTF is wrong with that. It's the job description. Programmers are essentially a type of translator. They translate constraints expressed in human language to constraints expressed as computer language. At the higher levels you have more say how exactly that happens in terms of system topology, but at that point you're no longer just a programmer, but an architect.
- LennyWhiteJr 5y ago
  > Yeah, WTF is wrong with that. Nothing is 'wrong' with it. You just do it at the detriment of your own career.
  - BulgarianIdiot 5y ago
    That's the thesis in this article. But it's non-sense BS. Even an idiot can put two and two together and conclude that if their business value depends on programs, then programmers create business value.
- slumdev 5y ago
  > Yeah, WTF is wrong with that Nothing is wrong with it. Donald Knuth proudly describes himself as a programmer. But a good chunk of the people reading this comment probably make more money than he does, and title inflation is part of the stupid game we have to play to earn outsized rewards. So proceed with caution.
  - quietunivac 5y ago
    "I am a programmer. On my 1040 form, that is what I put down as my occupation. As a programmer, I write programs." -- Ken Thompson, in his 1983 Turing Award lecture, "Reflections on Trusting Trust". https://dl.acm.org/doi/10.1145/358198.358210 https://dl.acm.org/doi/10.1145/358198.358210
- yawboakye 5y ago
  Programmers program computers. No different than dentists drill teeth. Or maybe we should adopt some Latinized or Hellenized name to infuse some mysticism? That’s our mistake?
  - FartyMcFarter 5y ago
    I think it's a bit different: there aren't many barely-trained (or untrained) people drilling teeth, but there are plenty of untrained programmers out there. However the "software engineer" title is also applied to a lot of untrained programmers, so I'm not saying that this term is analogous to "dentist" even if it should be.
    - yawboakye 5y ago
      While I could agree with you, my fundamental disagreement rests on this: it is the practice that awards the title/description not the certification/training. I’m willing to submit the philosophical underpinnings of this argument but I believe even without that the statement above can stand on its own.
  - uomopertica 5y ago
    > Hellenized name That’s literally it.
    - yawboakye 5y ago
      I submit Claviculist (from Latin for one who works with small keys: Clavicularius).
- swader999 5y ago
  I called myself a systems analyst. We don't use the term engineer in my country. It leads to conversations where I describe that a lot of my job is optimizing processes before I code them. This was a great article for the bulk of programmers that end up in business programming.
xwdv 5y ago
Calling yourself a programmer sounds fairly blue collar these days. If that’s what you want for yourself, fine. But don’t grumble when you get replaced by some cheap worker overseas.
- Epenthesis 5y ago
  I imagine this depends on what circles you run in. I feel like in silicon valley, the modal image is of a FAANG employee making 400 k$/yr.
- SwiftyBug 5y ago
  I'm fine with it. Makes it easier to remind me to what class I really belong.
  - yellowapple 5y ago
    Agreed. I certainly relate a lot easier to, say, pickers and packers in a warehouse than I do with execs in fancy offices. Maybe the article wants me to flip that around, but it's the workers - the actual users of my code - who drive what software I write and how I write it, and it's therefore their best interests that are at the forefront of my brain - and if it's in their best interests, then it's in the best interests of the company as a whole, since (to the article's point) enabling ground-floor workers to work as efficiently as possible both maximizes profit and minimizes cost. Being disconnected from ground-floor workers has been the hardest part about remote work, on that note.
dj_mc_merlin 5y ago
Yes, but the advice he's giving is not meant to optimize for the most perfect description of what you actually do. It's meant to make what you do sound good in the eyes of people more concerned with making money than objectively and unambiguously describing things.
- croes 5y ago
  That led to all those buggy software we now have. Maybe we shouldn't appease these "moneymakers".
  - p_l 5y ago
    "Those" people find it much easier to bully low status people like "programmers".
  - pdimitar 5y ago
    I absolutely don't see the connection between the two, can you give examples? (Also, "not appeasing those moneymakers" is the quickest way to get broke and become unemployable but hey, you do you.)
pstuart 5y ago
Most of my work has involved shlepping bits from A to B, so I've become fond of the term Data Plumber.

BulgarianIdiot 5y ago

Yeah, WTF is wrong with that. It's the job description. Programmers are essentially a type of translator. They translate constraints expressed in human language to constraints expressed as computer language. At the higher levels you have more say how exactly that happens in terms of system topology, but at that point you're no longer just a programmer, but an architect.

LennyWhiteJr 5y ago
> Yeah, WTF is wrong with that. Nothing is 'wrong' with it. You just do it at the detriment of your own career.
- BulgarianIdiot 5y ago
  That's the thesis in this article. But it's non-sense BS. Even an idiot can put two and two together and conclude that if their business value depends on programs, then programmers create business value.
slumdev 5y ago
> Yeah, WTF is wrong with that Nothing is wrong with it. Donald Knuth proudly describes himself as a programmer. But a good chunk of the people reading this comment probably make more money than he does, and title inflation is part of the stupid game we have to play to earn outsized rewards. So proceed with caution.
- quietunivac 5y ago
  "I am a programmer. On my 1040 form, that is what I put down as my occupation. As a programmer, I write programs." -- Ken Thompson, in his 1983 Turing Award lecture, "Reflections on Trusting Trust". https://dl.acm.org/doi/10.1145/358198.358210 https://dl.acm.org/doi/10.1145/358198.358210
yawboakye 5y ago
Programmers program computers. No different than dentists drill teeth. Or maybe we should adopt some Latinized or Hellenized name to infuse some mysticism? That’s our mistake?
- FartyMcFarter 5y ago
  I think it's a bit different: there aren't many barely-trained (or untrained) people drilling teeth, but there are plenty of untrained programmers out there. However the "software engineer" title is also applied to a lot of untrained programmers, so I'm not saying that this term is analogous to "dentist" even if it should be.
  - yawboakye 5y ago
    While I could agree with you, my fundamental disagreement rests on this: it is the practice that awards the title/description not the certification/training. I’m willing to submit the philosophical underpinnings of this argument but I believe even without that the statement above can stand on its own.
- uomopertica 5y ago
  > Hellenized name That’s literally it.
  - yawboakye 5y ago
    I submit Claviculist (from Latin for one who works with small keys: Clavicularius).
swader999 5y ago
I called myself a systems analyst. We don't use the term engineer in my country. It leads to conversations where I describe that a lot of my job is optimizing processes before I code them. This was a great article for the bulk of programmers that end up in business programming.

xwdv 5y ago

Calling yourself a programmer sounds fairly blue collar these days. If that’s what you want for yourself, fine. But don’t grumble when you get replaced by some cheap worker overseas.

Epenthesis 5y ago
I imagine this depends on what circles you run in. I feel like in silicon valley, the modal image is of a FAANG employee making 400 k$/yr.
SwiftyBug 5y ago
I'm fine with it. Makes it easier to remind me to what class I really belong.
- yellowapple 5y ago
  Agreed. I certainly relate a lot easier to, say, pickers and packers in a warehouse than I do with execs in fancy offices. Maybe the article wants me to flip that around, but it's the workers - the actual users of my code - who drive what software I write and how I write it, and it's therefore their best interests that are at the forefront of my brain - and if it's in their best interests, then it's in the best interests of the company as a whole, since (to the article's point) enabling ground-floor workers to work as efficiently as possible both maximizes profit and minimizes cost. Being disconnected from ground-floor workers has been the hardest part about remote work, on that note.

dj_mc_merlin 5y ago

Yes, but the advice he's giving is not meant to optimize for the most perfect description of what you actually do. It's meant to make what you do sound good in the eyes of people more concerned with making money than objectively and unambiguously describing things.

croes 5y ago
That led to all those buggy software we now have. Maybe we shouldn't appease these "moneymakers".
- p_l 5y ago
  "Those" people find it much easier to bully low status people like "programmers".
- pdimitar 5y ago
  I absolutely don't see the connection between the two, can you give examples? (Also, "not appeasing those moneymakers" is the quickest way to get broke and become unemployable but hey, you do you.)

pstuart 5y ago

Most of my work has involved shlepping bits from A to B, so I've become fond of the term Data Plumber.