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> Sure, I can also cherry-pick articles on how meat consumption is unhealthy as well. Go ahead, but those are irrelevant if they're about eating meat. The stud

> Sure, I can also cherry-pick articles on how meat consumption is unhealthy as well. Go ahead, but those are irrelevant if they're about eating meat. The studies I linked to suggest that not eating meat can cause B12 deficiencies. They say more things that might be interesting but you'll have to read them for that. And of course it's not a "solved problem" if people actually suffer from it. That's just wilful ignorance. > There are some vegans that refuse to supplement due to being on fad diets, but that does not mean vegans cannot get the nutrients they need. And that's a classic No True Scottsman, I believe. I use an alt for conversations like this because I genuinely feel soiled afterwards, the level of debate is so low, almost without fail. Dishonesty and politicking all the way down.

spicymaki 5y ago
>And of course it's not a "solved problem" if people actually suffer from it. That's just wilful ignorance. No, I am not ignorant, I am following my doctor's guidelines and the national nutritional guidelines for vegans/vegetarians. Doctors can actually measure B12 levels and provide supplementation advice, and remeasure to make sure you are at safe levels. B12 supplementation for a vegetarian/vegan diet is well understood. I would need preponderance of evidence to convince me otherwise. Just because you cherry-pick articles that point to a conclusion you prefer, does not make it true. That is not how science works. I will let the experts work out the details and form a consensus then let my health care provider and/or dietitian provide me with evidence-based medical advice. >I use an alt for conversations like this because I genuinely feel soiled afterwards If you need an alt to debate something you believe in, then you might not have a defensible moral basis for your beliefs. > Dishonesty and politicking all the way down There is no dishonesty in what I believe. The mass industrialization of the breeding, raising, and slaughter of animals for human consumption is bad for the animals, the environment, and humanity. That needs to end, and I will dedicate time, effort, and karma to advocate for that.
- cheese_goddess 5y ago
  Oh man, come on. Be a grown up and read what I write, not what you want to read. I don't care what you do, the articles I linked you show "a preponderance of evidence" that many vegetarians and vegans (entire populations in India) suffer from B12 deficiency. You don't want to know anything about that? You follow your doctor's advice so you don't care what everyone else does? Well, that's the willful ignorance. And I'm with you on "mass industrialisation". Factory farming is an atrocity that should be eliminated. But what does that have to do with eating enough meat to stay healthy? Most people in the world don't get their meat from factory farms. Now, did you really not know that, or did you know it and willfully ignore it, too?
  - spicymaki 5y ago
    > I don't care what you do, the articles I linked you show "a preponderance of evidence" that many vegetarians and vegans (entire populations in India) suffer from B12 deficiency. That does not prove that supplementation does not work. I cannot attest to what many vegans and vegetarians are doing or what people in India are doing. I know many who refuse to supplement. I supplement and have a open fact-based relationship with my doctor. Meat eaters can get B12 deficiency as well. When they do, they go to the doctor and get tested, and then get supplementation. > You follow your doctor's advice so you don't care what everyone else does? I care, that is why I am debating with you. > And I'm with you on "mass industrialisation" I am glad we agree on something. > But what does that have to do with eating enough meat to stay healthy? The crux of the problem is you can't scale Western levels of meat consumption to 7 billion + people in the world without the immorality of mass industrialization. Locally grown, organic, grass fed beef (or even environmentally better kelp fed), free range chickens and eggs from your back yard, ethically caught fish grown in the untouched pristine waters, managed by your friendly ethical farmer or fisherman at scale is unachievable. The reality is, in order to feed everyone on a meat and fish diet at the price people can afford you need industrial scale. With industrial scale you get the absolute moral hellscape we live in now. > Most people in the world don't get their meat from factory farms. I actually believe you. However in the US 99% of farmed animals live in factory farms and I am sure it is similar in the EU, and as people around world become richer they are transitioning to Western style diets with meat and dairy which will require them to industrialize. What is interesting is that in all of the online debates I have had. No one has ever defended the ethics of mass industrial farming.
    - cheese_goddess 5y ago
      > That does not prove that supplementation does not work. Before I spend another second on your comment show me where I said that "supplementation does not work". If you don't have the time to read what I actually wrote and understand it, then why should I waste my time writing it?
      - spicymaki 5y ago

spicymaki 5y ago

>And of course it's not a "solved problem" if people actually suffer from it. That's just wilful ignorance. No, I am not ignorant, I am following my doctor's guidelines and the national nutritional guidelines for vegans/vegetarians. Doctors can actually measure B12 levels and provide supplementation advice, and remeasure to make sure you are at safe levels. B12 supplementation for a vegetarian/vegan diet is well understood. I would need preponderance of evidence to convince me otherwise. Just because you cherry-pick articles that point to a conclusion you prefer, does not make it true. That is not how science works. I will let the experts work out the details and form a consensus then let my health care provider and/or dietitian provide me with evidence-based medical advice. >I use an alt for conversations like this because I genuinely feel soiled afterwards If you need an alt to debate something you believe in, then you might not have a defensible moral basis for your beliefs. > Dishonesty and politicking all the way down There is no dishonesty in what I believe. The mass industrialization of the breeding, raising, and slaughter of animals for human consumption is bad for the animals, the environment, and humanity. That needs to end, and I will dedicate time, effort, and karma to advocate for that.

cheese_goddess 5y ago
Oh man, come on. Be a grown up and read what I write, not what you want to read. I don't care what you do, the articles I linked you show "a preponderance of evidence" that many vegetarians and vegans (entire populations in India) suffer from B12 deficiency. You don't want to know anything about that? You follow your doctor's advice so you don't care what everyone else does? Well, that's the willful ignorance. And I'm with you on "mass industrialisation". Factory farming is an atrocity that should be eliminated. But what does that have to do with eating enough meat to stay healthy? Most people in the world don't get their meat from factory farms. Now, did you really not know that, or did you know it and willfully ignore it, too?
- spicymaki 5y ago
  > I don't care what you do, the articles I linked you show "a preponderance of evidence" that many vegetarians and vegans (entire populations in India) suffer from B12 deficiency. That does not prove that supplementation does not work. I cannot attest to what many vegans and vegetarians are doing or what people in India are doing. I know many who refuse to supplement. I supplement and have a open fact-based relationship with my doctor. Meat eaters can get B12 deficiency as well. When they do, they go to the doctor and get tested, and then get supplementation. > You follow your doctor's advice so you don't care what everyone else does? I care, that is why I am debating with you. > And I'm with you on "mass industrialisation" I am glad we agree on something. > But what does that have to do with eating enough meat to stay healthy? The crux of the problem is you can't scale Western levels of meat consumption to 7 billion + people in the world without the immorality of mass industrialization. Locally grown, organic, grass fed beef (or even environmentally better kelp fed), free range chickens and eggs from your back yard, ethically caught fish grown in the untouched pristine waters, managed by your friendly ethical farmer or fisherman at scale is unachievable. The reality is, in order to feed everyone on a meat and fish diet at the price people can afford you need industrial scale. With industrial scale you get the absolute moral hellscape we live in now. > Most people in the world don't get their meat from factory farms. I actually believe you. However in the US 99% of farmed animals live in factory farms and I am sure it is similar in the EU, and as people around world become richer they are transitioning to Western style diets with meat and dairy which will require them to industrialize. What is interesting is that in all of the online debates I have had. No one has ever defended the ethics of mass industrial farming.
  - cheese_goddess 5y ago
    > That does not prove that supplementation does not work. Before I spend another second on your comment show me where I said that "supplementation does not work". If you don't have the time to read what I actually wrote and understand it, then why should I waste my time writing it?
    - spicymaki 5y ago