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On a global perspective the interests of too many people don't align to reach any sensible consensus by conventional means. We see it with the pandemic, we see

On a global perspective the interests of too many people don't align to reach any sensible consensus by conventional means. We see it with the pandemic, we see it with global warming and we saw it in general with every conflict and wars. How can we make this happen?

Lex-2008 5y ago
Are you describing what is also known as "Tragedy of the commons"? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tragedy_of_the_commons https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tragedy_of_the_commons
- stackbutterflow 5y ago
  More like the prisoner's dilemma, no?
- protoman3000 5y ago
  The "Tragedy of the commons" is a situation where choices based on self-interest converge to a negative outcome. I would not characterize our situation on global level like that. The difference is that in our world people do express desire to cooperate, also on a global scale, but reaching consensus seems like an intractable or practically unsolvable problem. Everybody knows that cooperating lies in their own self interest, but what does it effectively mean to cooperate? It begins at different levels. For example, before we even begin to see disagreement on how to do the the things we want, we already have no consensus on what to do in the first place.
  - PeterisP 5y ago
    Arguably it is exactly like the tragedy of commons - the original analogy is common pastures getting overexploited as noone wants to limit their cows so that the pasture isn't overcrowded; and in this analogy noone wants to limit their satellites so that the space isn't overcrowded..
    - guerrilla 5y ago
      "A resource arrangement that works in practice can work in theory." - Elinor Ostrom Good thing that old thought experiment isn't based on empirical evidence from the real world as the first woman to win a Nobel Prize in economics showed us [1]. In both cases, it's in all participants interest as the GP said but there are some further conditions that Ostram outlined. It turns out in the real world, those conditions are met more often than not and can clearly met in this case. 1. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elinor_Ostrom#Research https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elinor_Ostrom#Research
    - tdeck 5y ago
      It would be better to describe this as the "tragedy of the unregulated commons". In reality societies that practiced commons-based agriculture were able to collaborate effectively and limit overgrazing through laws and community norms.
dgb23 5y ago
Just yesterday I was ranting on hn about how we don’t value solving the big problems. But I don’t know the answers. As an individual I try to learn and improve minimizing my negative impact and working towards a sustainable business. But that is so small and insignificant in comparison to solving problems like these. Maybe we have to think very long term and improve the effectiveness and reach of education. Maybe the hope is that future generations are smarter and more empathetic than us.
- mistermann 5y ago
  For one, I don't think humanity has developed thinking/communication styles and models that are sophisticated enough to engage in sufficiently cooperative behavior at scale. For two: > But I don’t know the answers. Very few people are able to do what you just did: realize that they do not actually know something (see: politics, covid, any culture war topic, etc). This is actually a sophisticated skill, and to say that we do not teach it would be a massive understatement. > Maybe the hope is that future generations are smarter and more empathetic than us. My concern is that even if they are much smarter at what we teach, if we're not teaching the skills that are needed (which may not be definitively known yet), we would still fail. It seems entirely possible to me that humanity is a dead species walking, but we are simply not able to properly and broadly conceptualize that to the degree necessary to wake up and change course.
- 7952 5y ago
  Yeah the biggest problem is human cooperation. We will put feet on mars before we ever come close to solving that. And curiously space exploration is something that does seem to be able to inspire people to work together. Lack of cooperation in everything else is why we can't have nice things.

Lex-2008 5y ago

Are you describing what is also known as "Tragedy of the commons"? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tragedy_of_the_commons https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tragedy_of_the_commons

stackbutterflow 5y ago
More like the prisoner's dilemma, no?
protoman3000 5y ago
The "Tragedy of the commons" is a situation where choices based on self-interest converge to a negative outcome. I would not characterize our situation on global level like that. The difference is that in our world people do express desire to cooperate, also on a global scale, but reaching consensus seems like an intractable or practically unsolvable problem. Everybody knows that cooperating lies in their own self interest, but what does it effectively mean to cooperate? It begins at different levels. For example, before we even begin to see disagreement on how to do the the things we want, we already have no consensus on what to do in the first place.
- PeterisP 5y ago
  Arguably it is exactly like the tragedy of commons - the original analogy is common pastures getting overexploited as noone wants to limit their cows so that the pasture isn't overcrowded; and in this analogy noone wants to limit their satellites so that the space isn't overcrowded..
  - guerrilla 5y ago
    "A resource arrangement that works in practice can work in theory." - Elinor Ostrom Good thing that old thought experiment isn't based on empirical evidence from the real world as the first woman to win a Nobel Prize in economics showed us [1]. In both cases, it's in all participants interest as the GP said but there are some further conditions that Ostram outlined. It turns out in the real world, those conditions are met more often than not and can clearly met in this case. 1. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elinor_Ostrom#Research https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elinor_Ostrom#Research
  - tdeck 5y ago
    It would be better to describe this as the "tragedy of the unregulated commons". In reality societies that practiced commons-based agriculture were able to collaborate effectively and limit overgrazing through laws and community norms.

dgb23 5y ago

Just yesterday I was ranting on hn about how we don’t value solving the big problems. But I don’t know the answers. As an individual I try to learn and improve minimizing my negative impact and working towards a sustainable business. But that is so small and insignificant in comparison to solving problems like these. Maybe we have to think very long term and improve the effectiveness and reach of education. Maybe the hope is that future generations are smarter and more empathetic than us.

mistermann 5y ago
For one, I don't think humanity has developed thinking/communication styles and models that are sophisticated enough to engage in sufficiently cooperative behavior at scale. For two: > But I don’t know the answers. Very few people are able to do what you just did: realize that they do not actually know something (see: politics, covid, any culture war topic, etc). This is actually a sophisticated skill, and to say that we do not teach it would be a massive understatement. > Maybe the hope is that future generations are smarter and more empathetic than us. My concern is that even if they are much smarter at what we teach, if we're not teaching the skills that are needed (which may not be definitively known yet), we would still fail. It seems entirely possible to me that humanity is a dead species walking, but we are simply not able to properly and broadly conceptualize that to the degree necessary to wake up and change course.
7952 5y ago
Yeah the biggest problem is human cooperation. We will put feet on mars before we ever come close to solving that. And curiously space exploration is something that does seem to be able to inspire people to work together. Lack of cooperation in everything else is why we can't have nice things.