5 ms·

Is turntable.fm legal?

29 points by almightygod 15y ago

gabaix 15y ago
I don't like turntable. While the idea is appealing (streaming music for friends or strangers), the UI is awful. There's too much color and illustrations are not helping. I would be happy to help if founders are reading this.
- cyanbane 15y ago
  I think the color and illustrations are what give it its appeal. It isn't your run of the mill streaming service, its fun and it has its own character. I currently pay for rdio and would probably pay a minimal amount for turntable.fm also if it came to that being what had to be done to keep it around.
- untog 15y ago
  If by 'illustrations' you mean the avatars... well, I'd argue that they are helping. Turntable seems deliberately colourful and kitchy to me. It's part of their image- if it was a Pandora-like page with a list of people's names it wouldn't be that interesting.
Stwerner 15y ago
I wouldn't be surprised if they start seeing legal trouble soon if it hasn't started already. I would gladly pay money to use it, if it comes to that, as I haven't had this much fun with a site for a very long time.
- almightygod 15y ago
  agreed - i think they could make considerable $ on affiliate traffic with iTune/Amazon if they improved the process to bookmark songs and purchase later
  - badclient 15y ago
    Disagree. You make pennies on an mp3 purchase at best. It takes a lot of pennies and purchases just to hit 10 bucks.
    - shmageggy 15y ago
      The entire traditional music licensing world is based on scaling up pennies and it has provided real income for many for a long time.
      - badclient 15y ago
        Pennies from radio play is different from pennies from an mp3 sale. I don't know any start-up making significant $ from mp3 referral sales. Tops they may make couple grand but that is not much when you are getting 5m uniques(won't even pay for the streaming; and making 2k from mp3 affiliate sales is tough even with 5M uniques.)
  - catch23 15y ago
    you'd probably make more money on ads than on affiliate for $1 mp3s.
  - Stwerner 15y ago
    I'm suggesting a little bigger than that - Blizzard is making a ton of money from WoW subscriptions every month, and $12/month for turntable would be pretty easy for me to justify.
- olex 15y ago
  Well, they already had to limit the service to US only.
- untog 15y ago
  Haven't they already signed a ton of licensing deals?
- mikx 15y ago
  The only time i would stop using turntable would be if there were commercials.
tuxidomasx 15y ago
How does this sort of legal uncertainty factor into the way investors view a product/company? On one hand, I feel like the risk could make it a less attractive investment since its an extra liability. Or would it be a reason for founders to ask for more money, under the idea that they need a warchest of funds to fight expensive lawsuits? On the other hand, being in a legal grey area could be seen as a barrier to entry for people who don't want a potential litigation nightmare hovering over their heads.
cbs 15y ago
I’d say it’s astonishing no one has done it before, but it’s not: The music business has a long tradition of resisting good ideas. I'd say it's astonishing he doesn't know internet radio station have existed for ages. It took a little bit more know how before getting getting put on the web, but its always been there.
- almightygod 15y ago
  turntable.fm is more then just an internet radio station. I've been disappointed by those for the last generation (besides NPR) - now with turntable.fm, I'm literally listening all day
apgwoz 15y ago
Don't they use, and have an agreement with MediaNet (http://www.mndigital.com/ http://www.mndigital.com/) which provides all the licensing they need (since MediaNet has deals in place with the record labels)?
- eli 15y ago
  They have an agreement with MediaNet yes, but it's definitely not some sort of blanket immunity to use copyrighted music. As a simple example: turntable allows uploads. What happens when I upload an MP3 from a band that isn't part of the MediaNet catalog? And at what point does streaming radio become a "digital locker"?
  - apgwoz 15y ago
    > Develop your own streaming or radio service. Pair this capability with our recommendation engine to have the ability to create track and/or artist based playlists on the fly with minimal effort. (source: http://www.mndigital.com/services/content-fulfillment.html http://www.mndigital.com/services/content-fulfillment.html) Seems pretty compelling that as a customer of MediaNet, their service (aside from uploads) is totally legal, unless MediaNet is somehow not. But they could simply turn off uploading should they be called out for that--I should have addressed that in my original comment. My guess is that much of the community wouldn't care if that feature was gone.
    - mason55 15y ago
      > My guess is that much of the community wouldn't care if that feature was gone. Most of the big public rooms are founded on playing pretty obscure stuff. The indie rock rooms could survive but the electro and dubstep type rooms would definitely die. I have no idea what the usage patterns are (do most people hang out in big public rooms or small rooms with friends?) but a pretty big segment would complain if uploads went away.
    - ethank 15y ago
      MediaNet is a product of the labels.It started in 2001 as Musicnet, created by Real Networks, AOL Time Warner, Bertelsmann and EMI. In my time at a label I tried to work with them, but their technology is kind of awful, so I wouldn't be shocked if Turntable is looking for a better partner. Essentially they are a proxy between the label catalogs, reporting for royalties and DSP's (digital service providers) who license and distribute content. Or as I referred to it internally, the "API Model" Regarding the user uploaded stuff, that's under DMCA. Of note: Turntable really falls into two licensing camps: DJ and listener. Very different terms required.

29 points by almightygod 15y ago

I don't like turntable. While the idea is appealing (streaming music for friends or strangers), the UI is awful. There's too much color and illustrations are not helping. I would be happy to help if founders are reading this.

cyanbane 15y ago
I think the color and illustrations are what give it its appeal. It isn't your run of the mill streaming service, its fun and it has its own character. I currently pay for rdio and would probably pay a minimal amount for turntable.fm also if it came to that being what had to be done to keep it around.
untog 15y ago
If by 'illustrations' you mean the avatars... well, I'd argue that they are helping. Turntable seems deliberately colourful and kitchy to me. It's part of their image- if it was a Pandora-like page with a list of people's names it wouldn't be that interesting.

Stwerner 15y ago

I wouldn't be surprised if they start seeing legal trouble soon if it hasn't started already. I would gladly pay money to use it, if it comes to that, as I haven't had this much fun with a site for a very long time.

almightygod 15y ago
agreed - i think they could make considerable $ on affiliate traffic with iTune/Amazon if they improved the process to bookmark songs and purchase later
- badclient 15y ago
  Disagree. You make pennies on an mp3 purchase at best. It takes a lot of pennies and purchases just to hit 10 bucks.
  - shmageggy 15y ago
    The entire traditional music licensing world is based on scaling up pennies and it has provided real income for many for a long time.
    - badclient 15y ago
      Pennies from radio play is different from pennies from an mp3 sale. I don't know any start-up making significant $ from mp3 referral sales. Tops they may make couple grand but that is not much when you are getting 5m uniques(won't even pay for the streaming; and making 2k from mp3 affiliate sales is tough even with 5M uniques.)
- catch23 15y ago
  you'd probably make more money on ads than on affiliate for $1 mp3s.
- Stwerner 15y ago
  I'm suggesting a little bigger than that - Blizzard is making a ton of money from WoW subscriptions every month, and $12/month for turntable would be pretty easy for me to justify.
olex 15y ago
Well, they already had to limit the service to US only.
untog 15y ago
Haven't they already signed a ton of licensing deals?
mikx 15y ago
The only time i would stop using turntable would be if there were commercials.

tuxidomasx 15y ago

How does this sort of legal uncertainty factor into the way investors view a product/company? On one hand, I feel like the risk could make it a less attractive investment since its an extra liability. Or would it be a reason for founders to ask for more money, under the idea that they need a warchest of funds to fight expensive lawsuits? On the other hand, being in a legal grey area could be seen as a barrier to entry for people who don't want a potential litigation nightmare hovering over their heads.

cbs 15y ago

I’d say it’s astonishing no one has done it before, but it’s not: The music business has a long tradition of resisting good ideas. I'd say it's astonishing he doesn't know internet radio station have existed for ages. It took a little bit more know how before getting getting put on the web, but its always been there.

almightygod 15y ago
turntable.fm is more then just an internet radio station. I've been disappointed by those for the last generation (besides NPR) - now with turntable.fm, I'm literally listening all day

apgwoz 15y ago

Don't they use, and have an agreement with MediaNet (http://www.mndigital.com/ http://www.mndigital.com/) which provides all the licensing they need (since MediaNet has deals in place with the record labels)?

eli 15y ago
They have an agreement with MediaNet yes, but it's definitely not some sort of blanket immunity to use copyrighted music. As a simple example: turntable allows uploads. What happens when I upload an MP3 from a band that isn't part of the MediaNet catalog? And at what point does streaming radio become a "digital locker"?
- apgwoz 15y ago
  > Develop your own streaming or radio service. Pair this capability with our recommendation engine to have the ability to create track and/or artist based playlists on the fly with minimal effort. (source: http://www.mndigital.com/services/content-fulfillment.html http://www.mndigital.com/services/content-fulfillment.html) Seems pretty compelling that as a customer of MediaNet, their service (aside from uploads) is totally legal, unless MediaNet is somehow not. But they could simply turn off uploading should they be called out for that--I should have addressed that in my original comment. My guess is that much of the community wouldn't care if that feature was gone.
  - mason55 15y ago
    > My guess is that much of the community wouldn't care if that feature was gone. Most of the big public rooms are founded on playing pretty obscure stuff. The indie rock rooms could survive but the electro and dubstep type rooms would definitely die. I have no idea what the usage patterns are (do most people hang out in big public rooms or small rooms with friends?) but a pretty big segment would complain if uploads went away.
  - ethank 15y ago
    MediaNet is a product of the labels.It started in 2001 as Musicnet, created by Real Networks, AOL Time Warner, Bertelsmann and EMI. In my time at a label I tried to work with them, but their technology is kind of awful, so I wouldn't be shocked if Turntable is looking for a better partner. Essentially they are a proxy between the label catalogs, reporting for royalties and DSP's (digital service providers) who license and distribute content. Or as I referred to it internally, the "API Model" Regarding the user uploaded stuff, that's under DMCA. Of note: Turntable really falls into two licensing camps: DJ and listener. Very different terms required.