6 ms·

The protocol designed to heal the ozone layer may also have fended off warming

69 points by r0n0j0y 5y ago

sonicggg 5y ago
Sounds exactly like a serial killer saying they saved someone's life by practicing self control.
munk-a 5y ago
This article is an interesting retrospective on some really good environmental moves the world has undertaken and may serve to help wash away doubt folks have about the ability for global cooperation to actually materialize buuuut... Gosh that title is just itching to be abused by apologists, we've managed to not end mankind in a whole bunch of ways during the past century - some people were quite convinced that a nuclear apocalypse was going to be the inevitable conclusion to the cold war.
anyfoo 5y ago
Good, so we have shown that we can make a difference. That means the defeatist argument ("we can't, so what's the point") does not hold, and we can proceed to actually do something. Patting ourselves on the shoulder that something has been done in the past will not help.
- gerdesj 5y ago
  Quite. Plant trees and conserve peat bogs.
  - deleted 5y ago
    [deleted]
  - deleted 5y ago
    [deleted]
  - actually_a_dog 5y ago
    I'm never going to say "don't plant trees," but, in the short term, there's some possibility that reforestation might actually increase warming by decreasing surface albedo. See https://climate.nasa.gov/news/2927/examining-the-viability-of-planting-trees-to-help-mitigate-climate-change/ https://climate.nasa.gov/news/2927/examining-the-viability-o... Even if that isn't the case, planting trees is still a long term move, and it's going to take at least several hundred billion trees to make a difference. It's not something where you can say "just plant trees, and everything will be alright."
    - gerdesj 5y ago
      This link: https://climate.nasa.gov/news/2927/examining-the-viability-of-planting-trees-to-help-mitigate-climate-change/ https://climate.nasa.gov/news/2927/examining-the-viability-o... has the word "albedo" mentioned six times. This is what you are alluding to: "In the near term and locally, says Saatchi, forest restoration may actually have a warming effect. As the trees mature, the new forest canopy cover would presumably make Earth’s surface albedo darker" "presumably".
- vegetablepotpie 5y ago
  We actually do need action, and the whole “we can’t do anything so why try” argument was never made in good faith to begin with. Rather it’s just one barrier of many in a game of political trench warfare. The bottom line is that we have incumbent industries that make money from the status quo and they maximize income by running out the clock.
sonicggg 5y ago
Will the nazis that moderate here keep on limiting freedom of speech?
- iaw 5y ago
  I was not involved with downvoting your first comment but I am downvoting this one because it's a clear violation of the guidelines: https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
gerdesj 5y ago
Ditching CFS is laudable. Ditching oil is a bit harder. I remember the hole in the ozone layer thing from start to not being quite finished (there are still a few holdouts in some parts of the world) I remember the breathless announcements on the TV news and realizing that the underarm deodorant I was using was a wrong one and doing fuck all about it (I was a teenager.) The manufacturer of that deodorant switched chemicals. I remember fridges and freezers being dumped because they were using the "wrong" refrigerants by well meaning owners. Could they have been re-gassed up with a non CFC and continued to work? No idea but I suspect that a lot of waste was generated. Pollution is hard to deal with, it's so easy to emit and so hard to withdraw. At the risk of trivializing the issue: try farting in front of your parents-in-law or considering doing it in front of 'er Maj Queen Elizabeth and considering the consequences.
- j_walter 5y ago
  Cash for clunkers anyone? How much waste did that create...turn in a 20 year old Civic and get a bunch of money to buy a brand new vehicle that probably gets worse MPG.
  - kreelman 5y ago
    Perhaps what you say is part of the problem, though usually MPG improves with newer vehichle versions? Change it over to "Cheap EV for clunkers", the government could/should cover most of the financials and it's a win for the car owner and the environment. I think it could be argued that it's the government's job to fund things like this. Vision is all that's required!
    - frosted-flakes 5y ago
      A lot of older cars had excellent MPG figures but actually polluted more than current cars, especially diesels. Also, cars have largely gotten bigger and heavier, which hurts efficiency.
      - DoingIsLearning 5y ago
labster 5y ago
Oh, so this is about the indirect effect of UV on plant growth reducing carbon uptake. Cool study. CFCs are also highly potent greenhouse gasses due to their long atmospheric residence time and the fact they have very different absorption spectra than everything else out there. The Montreal Protocol is a lot like the chemical weapons ban: a ban of something the rich and powerful really don’t need that is incidentally the right thing to do. This kind of enforcement regime will work on fossil fuels in about 20 years when we have fusion power, but until then incentives are too greatly against it.
poorjohnmacafee 5y ago
Except CFCs have been on the rise [1] because not all countries follow the ban. They are a more potent GHG that fall right in the middle of the atmospheric window. It's a big deal... https://www.nature.com/articles/s41586-019-1193-4 https://www.nature.com/articles/s41586-019-1193-4
Proven 5y ago
"May have" - they don't know. Why bother reading? Having seem Greenland rain mentioned five times, I've had enough of this stuff for the day.

69 points by r0n0j0y 5y ago

Sounds exactly like a serial killer saying they saved someone's life by practicing self control.

This article is an interesting retrospective on some really good environmental moves the world has undertaken and may serve to help wash away doubt folks have about the ability for global cooperation to actually materialize buuuut... Gosh that title is just itching to be abused by apologists, we've managed to not end mankind in a whole bunch of ways during the past century - some people were quite convinced that a nuclear apocalypse was going to be the inevitable conclusion to the cold war.

anyfoo 5y ago

Good, so we have shown that we can make a difference. That means the defeatist argument ("we can't, so what's the point") does not hold, and we can proceed to actually do something. Patting ourselves on the shoulder that something has been done in the past will not help.

gerdesj 5y ago
Quite. Plant trees and conserve peat bogs.
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
- actually_a_dog 5y ago
  I'm never going to say "don't plant trees," but, in the short term, there's some possibility that reforestation might actually increase warming by decreasing surface albedo. See https://climate.nasa.gov/news/2927/examining-the-viability-of-planting-trees-to-help-mitigate-climate-change/ https://climate.nasa.gov/news/2927/examining-the-viability-o... Even if that isn't the case, planting trees is still a long term move, and it's going to take at least several hundred billion trees to make a difference. It's not something where you can say "just plant trees, and everything will be alright."
  - gerdesj 5y ago
    This link: https://climate.nasa.gov/news/2927/examining-the-viability-of-planting-trees-to-help-mitigate-climate-change/ https://climate.nasa.gov/news/2927/examining-the-viability-o... has the word "albedo" mentioned six times. This is what you are alluding to: "In the near term and locally, says Saatchi, forest restoration may actually have a warming effect. As the trees mature, the new forest canopy cover would presumably make Earth’s surface albedo darker" "presumably".
vegetablepotpie 5y ago
We actually do need action, and the whole “we can’t do anything so why try” argument was never made in good faith to begin with. Rather it’s just one barrier of many in a game of political trench warfare. The bottom line is that we have incumbent industries that make money from the status quo and they maximize income by running out the clock.

sonicggg 5y ago

Will the nazis that moderate here keep on limiting freedom of speech?

iaw 5y ago
I was not involved with downvoting your first comment but I am downvoting this one because it's a clear violation of the guidelines: https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

gerdesj 5y ago

Ditching CFS is laudable. Ditching oil is a bit harder. I remember the hole in the ozone layer thing from start to not being quite finished (there are still a few holdouts in some parts of the world) I remember the breathless announcements on the TV news and realizing that the underarm deodorant I was using was a wrong one and doing fuck all about it (I was a teenager.) The manufacturer of that deodorant switched chemicals. I remember fridges and freezers being dumped because they were using the "wrong" refrigerants by well meaning owners. Could they have been re-gassed up with a non CFC and continued to work? No idea but I suspect that a lot of waste was generated. Pollution is hard to deal with, it's so easy to emit and so hard to withdraw. At the risk of trivializing the issue: try farting in front of your parents-in-law or considering doing it in front of 'er Maj Queen Elizabeth and considering the consequences.

j_walter 5y ago
Cash for clunkers anyone? How much waste did that create...turn in a 20 year old Civic and get a bunch of money to buy a brand new vehicle that probably gets worse MPG.
- kreelman 5y ago
  Perhaps what you say is part of the problem, though usually MPG improves with newer vehichle versions? Change it over to "Cheap EV for clunkers", the government could/should cover most of the financials and it's a win for the car owner and the environment. I think it could be argued that it's the government's job to fund things like this. Vision is all that's required!
  - frosted-flakes 5y ago
    A lot of older cars had excellent MPG figures but actually polluted more than current cars, especially diesels. Also, cars have largely gotten bigger and heavier, which hurts efficiency.
    - DoingIsLearning 5y ago

labster 5y ago

Oh, so this is about the indirect effect of UV on plant growth reducing carbon uptake. Cool study. CFCs are also highly potent greenhouse gasses due to their long atmospheric residence time and the fact they have very different absorption spectra than everything else out there. The Montreal Protocol is a lot like the chemical weapons ban: a ban of something the rich and powerful really don’t need that is incidentally the right thing to do. This kind of enforcement regime will work on fossil fuels in about 20 years when we have fusion power, but until then incentives are too greatly against it.

poorjohnmacafee 5y ago

Except CFCs have been on the rise [1] because not all countries follow the ban. They are a more potent GHG that fall right in the middle of the atmospheric window. It's a big deal... https://www.nature.com/articles/s41586-019-1193-4 https://www.nature.com/articles/s41586-019-1193-4

Proven 5y ago

"May have" - they don't know. Why bother reading? Having seem Greenland rain mentioned five times, I've had enough of this stuff for the day.