34 ms·

The Difference Between Electrical Engineers and Computer Scientists

40 points by smanek 18y ago

azharcs 18y ago
Moral of the Story : Don't Complicate simple things.
- Herring 18y ago
  Pity the other lesson - don't simplify inherently complicated things - isn't as popular.
rw 18y ago
My interpretation: Either make a great oven, or make a specialty cake-baking device. Don't straddle the middle ground of generality, the place filled with myriad edge cases and awkward attempts at abstraction.
thamer 18y ago
A mashup between "Architecture Astronauts" and "Execution in the Kingdom of Nouns", two good reads.
- davidw 18y ago
  Another funny one in a similar vein, taken from a real story (supposedly), is "the complicator's gloves".
maxklein 18y ago
Studying robotics, one learns an effective combination of engineering and computer science theory. So I'd have given the same answer as the computer scientist, but in ASM, low level C and Verilog.
ojbyrne 18y ago
Of course, he asked the wrong question - if he asked the engineer to design the whole toaster, and without constraints, it would be made of carbon-fiber, generate heat equivalent to an arc-welder, and fold up into a wallet-sized package. And cost $9000.
kenver 18y ago
Given enough time the two disciplines will probably become closer, some university departments have aready combined them both (Southampton I believe does this). I dread to think what sort of toasters we'll get when this happens!
- aston 18y ago
  At MIT (where Greenspun's been for a long time) they're together in a major. Which might explain why he's writing about how different they are.
smcdow 18y ago
Ugh. As someone with an EE degree, this is a nice allegory explaining why anyone with a CS degree coming in an job interview at my company has to demonstrate that they've overcome their deficiencies introduced by the CS program. Usually a few questions involving pointers does the trick quite nicely. In fact, I'm almost at the point where I'm rejecting applicants with CS degrees out of hand. I've had too many problems with architecture astronauts and the Java-solves-all-problems crowd.
- pmorici 18y ago
  I think that is an unfair characterization. People from reputable CS programs don't think this way. The problem is watered down schools giving CS a bad name.
  - jordyhoyt 18y ago
    Right, any program that leaves its students thinking any one language solves all problems has failed to do its job.
- ajross 18y ago
  Isn't the real bug here that your hiring process is using the degree program as input in the first place? If a few questions about pointers are all it takes, then isn't that a better, cheaper indicator to use?
- eugenejen 18y ago
  I feel so sad, because I got a physics degree with EE as minor and an M.Sc. in computer science. I can work in x86 Asm, C, Java, PHP/Python/Perl/Ruby,Scheme and circuits depends on problems at hand. I guess I will be kicked out immediately by your filter. At the other hand. I feel so sad for you because the method that you are using is complete hindsight driven and you are correlating wrong causes and effects and misusing statistics. So please be careful of the happening of black swans.
wwalker3 18y ago
The supposed EE's design is too complex by half. Indexing into an array of precomputed timer values? No. That's digital "CS thinking" :) All you need is a photodetector. The heating coils illuminate the toast, and the photodetector shuts the toaster off once it's dark enough. The darkness knob adjusts the photodetector's cutoff threshold. This system is even adaptive -- if it's cold that day, or your bread is frozen, it'll still get toasted to the same color.
- timb 18y ago
  some bread (such as dark rye) has the same colour as toast.
  - wwalker3 18y ago
    Good point. You'd have to make the darkness control an offset from the initial darkness, rather than an absolute darkness level. Not hard, but you'd need an extra bit of analog circuitry to store the initial value of the toast's reflectance.
    - maximilian 18y ago
      You could also not waste time figuring out how to store the darkness using "analog circuitry" and just put a micro on the thing. Then you could have multiple sensors that would figure out what kind of bread was put in and then toast accordingly. It would a pretty fun problem to work on once the basic toaster was finished. You could play around with different kinds of sensors - heat, infrared LEDs+detectors, normal LEDs+detector, just light detector from ambient of the coils. And the best part would be that you get to eat piles of yummy toast.
    - blogimus 18y ago
      considering the parent's post about breads such as dark rye (pumpernickel): These breads are dark enough to start that there is 1) less gradation between untoasted and burnt than say, white or wheat bread, so the same "delta dark" would results in burnt toast. 2) the toast can (if the original bread is dry and/or dense enough) become unpalatably hard during the toasting process even before turning dark enough to be considered burnt.
wallflower 18y ago
As the old joke goes, you cannot spell 'geek' without double-E. I've worked with them. Much respect for electrical engineers.
jonmc12 18y ago
EE, bottom-up problem solving; CS, top-down problem solving? EE's that I have worked with seem to understand system function deeply first, and build around it. CS's usually mock-up simple versions, get it right, then optimize later. Broad generalization I know, but do others observe this? Possible reasons: 1) high cost of iteration in most hardware systems vs software. 2) University educational strategy in CS vs EE. 3) Availability of easy-to-use, quality, low-cost tools for software vs hardware.
ken 18y ago
"Users won't buy the product unless it has a user-friendly, graphical interface. When the breakfast cooker is plugged in, users should see a cowboy boot on the screen" http://arstechnica.com/reviews/os/open-moko-software.media/asuboot.png http://arstechnica.com/reviews/os/open-moko-software.media/a...
Maascamp 18y ago
This is not a story about a computer scientist. It's a story about an enterprise IT consultant.
bootload 18y ago
"... The second advisor, a computer scientist, immediately recognized the danger of such short-sighted thinking. He said, "Toasters don't just turn bread into toast, they are also used to warm frozen waffles. What you see before you is really a breakfast food cooker. ..." Code sharp, not pretty?

40 points by smanek 18y ago

azharcs 18y ago

Moral of the Story : Don't Complicate simple things.

Herring 18y ago
Pity the other lesson - don't simplify inherently complicated things - isn't as popular.

rw 18y ago

My interpretation: Either make a great oven, or make a specialty cake-baking device. Don't straddle the middle ground of generality, the place filled with myriad edge cases and awkward attempts at abstraction.

thamer 18y ago

A mashup between "Architecture Astronauts" and "Execution in the Kingdom of Nouns", two good reads.

davidw 18y ago
Another funny one in a similar vein, taken from a real story (supposedly), is "the complicator's gloves".

maxklein 18y ago

Studying robotics, one learns an effective combination of engineering and computer science theory. So I'd have given the same answer as the computer scientist, but in ASM, low level C and Verilog.

ojbyrne 18y ago

Of course, he asked the wrong question - if he asked the engineer to design the whole toaster, and without constraints, it would be made of carbon-fiber, generate heat equivalent to an arc-welder, and fold up into a wallet-sized package. And cost $9000.

kenver 18y ago

Given enough time the two disciplines will probably become closer, some university departments have aready combined them both (Southampton I believe does this). I dread to think what sort of toasters we'll get when this happens!

aston 18y ago
At MIT (where Greenspun's been for a long time) they're together in a major. Which might explain why he's writing about how different they are.

smcdow 18y ago

Ugh. As someone with an EE degree, this is a nice allegory explaining why anyone with a CS degree coming in an job interview at my company has to demonstrate that they've overcome their deficiencies introduced by the CS program. Usually a few questions involving pointers does the trick quite nicely. In fact, I'm almost at the point where I'm rejecting applicants with CS degrees out of hand. I've had too many problems with architecture astronauts and the Java-solves-all-problems crowd.

pmorici 18y ago
I think that is an unfair characterization. People from reputable CS programs don't think this way. The problem is watered down schools giving CS a bad name.
- jordyhoyt 18y ago
  Right, any program that leaves its students thinking any one language solves all problems has failed to do its job.
ajross 18y ago
Isn't the real bug here that your hiring process is using the degree program as input in the first place? If a few questions about pointers are all it takes, then isn't that a better, cheaper indicator to use?
eugenejen 18y ago
I feel so sad, because I got a physics degree with EE as minor and an M.Sc. in computer science. I can work in x86 Asm, C, Java, PHP/Python/Perl/Ruby,Scheme and circuits depends on problems at hand. I guess I will be kicked out immediately by your filter. At the other hand. I feel so sad for you because the method that you are using is complete hindsight driven and you are correlating wrong causes and effects and misusing statistics. So please be careful of the happening of black swans.

wwalker3 18y ago

The supposed EE's design is too complex by half. Indexing into an array of precomputed timer values? No. That's digital "CS thinking" :) All you need is a photodetector. The heating coils illuminate the toast, and the photodetector shuts the toaster off once it's dark enough. The darkness knob adjusts the photodetector's cutoff threshold. This system is even adaptive -- if it's cold that day, or your bread is frozen, it'll still get toasted to the same color.

timb 18y ago
some bread (such as dark rye) has the same colour as toast.
- wwalker3 18y ago
  Good point. You'd have to make the darkness control an offset from the initial darkness, rather than an absolute darkness level. Not hard, but you'd need an extra bit of analog circuitry to store the initial value of the toast's reflectance.
  - maximilian 18y ago
    You could also not waste time figuring out how to store the darkness using "analog circuitry" and just put a micro on the thing. Then you could have multiple sensors that would figure out what kind of bread was put in and then toast accordingly. It would a pretty fun problem to work on once the basic toaster was finished. You could play around with different kinds of sensors - heat, infrared LEDs+detectors, normal LEDs+detector, just light detector from ambient of the coils. And the best part would be that you get to eat piles of yummy toast.
  - blogimus 18y ago
    considering the parent's post about breads such as dark rye (pumpernickel): These breads are dark enough to start that there is 1) less gradation between untoasted and burnt than say, white or wheat bread, so the same "delta dark" would results in burnt toast. 2) the toast can (if the original bread is dry and/or dense enough) become unpalatably hard during the toasting process even before turning dark enough to be considered burnt.

wallflower 18y ago

As the old joke goes, you cannot spell 'geek' without double-E. I've worked with them. Much respect for electrical engineers.

jonmc12 18y ago

EE, bottom-up problem solving; CS, top-down problem solving? EE's that I have worked with seem to understand system function deeply first, and build around it. CS's usually mock-up simple versions, get it right, then optimize later. Broad generalization I know, but do others observe this? Possible reasons: 1) high cost of iteration in most hardware systems vs software. 2) University educational strategy in CS vs EE. 3) Availability of easy-to-use, quality, low-cost tools for software vs hardware.

ken 18y ago

"Users won't buy the product unless it has a user-friendly, graphical interface. When the breakfast cooker is plugged in, users should see a cowboy boot on the screen" http://arstechnica.com/reviews/os/open-moko-software.media/asuboot.png http://arstechnica.com/reviews/os/open-moko-software.media/a...

Maascamp 18y ago

This is not a story about a computer scientist. It's a story about an enterprise IT consultant.

bootload 18y ago

"... The second advisor, a computer scientist, immediately recognized the danger of such short-sighted thinking. He said, "Toasters don't just turn bread into toast, they are also used to warm frozen waffles. What you see before you is really a breakfast food cooker. ..." Code sharp, not pretty?