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I'm pretty salty about this. It's totally unethical, they knew it wasn't legal, and yet... they're going to be OK outside the fine? Why do we bother being ethi

I'm pretty salty about this. It's totally unethical, they knew it wasn't legal, and yet... they're going to be OK outside the fine? Why do we bother being ethical when nobody besides us gives a shit outside a slap on the wrist? You know how many people thought of Plaid before it was a thing, then rightfully wrote it off as "don't attempt"? What kind of sick precedent does this set? Why do I even bother caring.

xwdv 5y ago
You already know the answer. Ask forgiveness not permission, move fast and break things.
- lucasyvas 5y ago
  Our profession is such a joke. We're no better than the stereotypical trades worker of yore... a bunch of plumbers scamming and ripping off the every day person that doesn't know any better. Truly pathetic.
  - vegetablepotpie 5y ago
    Or perhaps it is our systems that are pathetic? Laws, regulations and enforcement thereof has always been a bureaucratic effort. As an early career engineer, who works at a highly bureaucratic company, I always asked for permission for access to things I needed for my job. The gate keepers would ignore me. Worst example was when my management asked me to start version controlling a project I created. I had to work with the change management department, it took them six months to create a repo on a server just because no one knew the person who knew how to do that, and they had to be the ones to make it, not me. Then I moved up in the company and got direct communication with the customer. The gate keepers come to me, not the other way around. Repos get created in a day now. The problem with every bureaucracy is the incentives are never aligned with the organizations stated mission. When you say “version control” what you really mean is version control for employees who directly bring money to the company, for which we’ll dedicate significant parts of our budget to employ people for a function that can be automated as some sort of make-work scheme. The incentives are messed up. Bureaucrats only win when they don’t get fired, and they don’t get fired when they follow the policies and procedures. And policies and procedures are there for the well trodden happy path. If you are innovating, there will, by definition, be no happy path, you have to make it, and if you ask a bureaucrat for help, they’ll seize up because there is no procedure to follow. At best they’ll direct you to someone else, who will also seize up and direct you back to the same person who sent you. I discovered that the best way around that is to make seizing up a more likely way to visibly fail. I need you to help me get this build out to the customer TODAY if failure to do that will result in higher consequences than failing to follow procedures, they will make the build. So moving fast and breaking things can get you to that high consequence state that bureaucrats seem to budge on. If you have a successful startup that breaks the law, you can please your users, and afford lawyers to defend you in court and afford PR firms that can convince the media to harass your regulators on your behalf.
  - cycomanic 5y ago
    I've been thinking about this quite a bit recently. I essenrially agree with you, software engineering culture/habits is nowhere close to actual "engineering". One suspicion I have is that this was largely enabled by the fact that software companies, in contrast to most hardware businesses could denounce liability for their products. The thing is, because software companies have become the most successful businesses in the world, SE principles (move fast, break stuff) are now viewed as "being innovative" and necessary for success. So they are increasingly being applied to other engineering disciplines.
  - kennywinker 5y ago
    I don’t actually share your low opinion of trades people current or of yore - and even the most unethical plumber isn’t financially ruining people by the tens of thousands. All the to say this profession can be MUCH worse than the tradespeople of yore
dataflow 5y ago
> they knew it wasn't legal Who knew what wasn't legal? I don't think anyone is doing anything illegal here?
- lucasyvas 5y ago
  Coercing credentials out of a user is phishing. I was wrong in that it may not be technically illegal, but are we really going to dispute if phishing is acceptable behaviour for a company to participate in?
SevenSigs 5y ago
And the fine was a joke... less then $1 per person affected. > Nearly 98 million people were affected, according to the settlement

xwdv 5y ago

You already know the answer. Ask forgiveness not permission, move fast and break things.

lucasyvas 5y ago
Our profession is such a joke. We're no better than the stereotypical trades worker of yore... a bunch of plumbers scamming and ripping off the every day person that doesn't know any better. Truly pathetic.
- vegetablepotpie 5y ago
  Or perhaps it is our systems that are pathetic? Laws, regulations and enforcement thereof has always been a bureaucratic effort. As an early career engineer, who works at a highly bureaucratic company, I always asked for permission for access to things I needed for my job. The gate keepers would ignore me. Worst example was when my management asked me to start version controlling a project I created. I had to work with the change management department, it took them six months to create a repo on a server just because no one knew the person who knew how to do that, and they had to be the ones to make it, not me. Then I moved up in the company and got direct communication with the customer. The gate keepers come to me, not the other way around. Repos get created in a day now. The problem with every bureaucracy is the incentives are never aligned with the organizations stated mission. When you say “version control” what you really mean is version control for employees who directly bring money to the company, for which we’ll dedicate significant parts of our budget to employ people for a function that can be automated as some sort of make-work scheme. The incentives are messed up. Bureaucrats only win when they don’t get fired, and they don’t get fired when they follow the policies and procedures. And policies and procedures are there for the well trodden happy path. If you are innovating, there will, by definition, be no happy path, you have to make it, and if you ask a bureaucrat for help, they’ll seize up because there is no procedure to follow. At best they’ll direct you to someone else, who will also seize up and direct you back to the same person who sent you. I discovered that the best way around that is to make seizing up a more likely way to visibly fail. I need you to help me get this build out to the customer TODAY if failure to do that will result in higher consequences than failing to follow procedures, they will make the build. So moving fast and breaking things can get you to that high consequence state that bureaucrats seem to budge on. If you have a successful startup that breaks the law, you can please your users, and afford lawyers to defend you in court and afford PR firms that can convince the media to harass your regulators on your behalf.
- cycomanic 5y ago
  I've been thinking about this quite a bit recently. I essenrially agree with you, software engineering culture/habits is nowhere close to actual "engineering". One suspicion I have is that this was largely enabled by the fact that software companies, in contrast to most hardware businesses could denounce liability for their products. The thing is, because software companies have become the most successful businesses in the world, SE principles (move fast, break stuff) are now viewed as "being innovative" and necessary for success. So they are increasingly being applied to other engineering disciplines.
- kennywinker 5y ago
  I don’t actually share your low opinion of trades people current or of yore - and even the most unethical plumber isn’t financially ruining people by the tens of thousands. All the to say this profession can be MUCH worse than the tradespeople of yore

dataflow 5y ago

> they knew it wasn't legal Who knew what wasn't legal? I don't think anyone is doing anything illegal here?

lucasyvas 5y ago
Coercing credentials out of a user is phishing. I was wrong in that it may not be technically illegal, but are we really going to dispute if phishing is acceptable behaviour for a company to participate in?

SevenSigs 5y ago

And the fine was a joke... less then $1 per person affected. > Nearly 98 million people were affected, according to the settlement