11 ms·

I mostly agree, though I will argue for the other side; child predators don't exactly have a track record for intelligence. Pedophiles still to this day get cau

I mostly agree, though I will argue for the other side; child predators don't exactly have a track record for intelligence. Pedophiles still to this day get caught trading CP on Facebook of all places. I think engaging in that kind of activity requires a certain number of brain cells misfiring. Watch some old episodes of To Catch A Predator. Most of those guys were borderline retarded or had obvious personality disorders.

jjjensen90 5y ago
This is not true and a harmful generalization. There are dumb people of every type. There are probably smart people you respect that engage in CSAM and are minor-attracted. This kind of privacy invasion will only net a tiny section of that population, as most know that lack of caution is life or death.
- ravenstine 5y ago
  > This is not true and a harmful generalization. There are dumb people of every type. That's purely specious, and you say it as if I ever asserted there aren't "dumb people of every type.", which I didn't say. Yes, there are dumb people of every "type". Are there as many intelligent people as those of low intelligence who struggle to think abstractly, struggle to read and write, have poor motor control, rely heavily on dogma for a moral compass, or have trouble with impulse control? If you think there are as many people with a high IQ as a low IQ with those traits, I don't think you're being honest. Here's some data for you: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4478390/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4478390/ https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/14744183/ https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/14744183/ https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/961457/ https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/961457/ https://www.dw.com/en/scientists-find-brain-differences-in-pedophiles/a-16305968 https://www.dw.com/en/scientists-find-brain-differences-in-p... https://sci-hubtw.hkvisa.net/10.1023/a:1018754004962 https://sci-hubtw.hkvisa.net/10.1023/a:1018754004962 https://www.livescience.com/4671-study-pedophiles-tend-shorter.html https://www.livescience.com/4671-study-pedophiles-tend-short... https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/29625377/ https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/29625377/ Are most pedophiles of low intelligence overall? It's doubtful, but there's room for more study. Are the pedophiles that are offenders of low intelligence? Significantly more offending pedophiles are of low intelligence than the general population. Yes, the factors at play may also apply to other forms of crime. But when you factor out non-offending pedophiles, those we aren't as concerned with in regards to CSAM, the ones that are caught aren't exactly the cream of the crop. Furthermore, I've met a handful of pedophiles, both convicted and not. Every one of them either was clearly mentally retarded or bordering on retardedness, or they had a severe personality disorder. Yes, it's a small sample size, but the ones that were caught did so doing the dumbest of shit (putting aside the horrific nature of child exploitation in the first place). This even includes a female pedophile, who was both stupid and psychopathic, and I find it funny that one of those studies questions the very existence of female pedophiles. There are many pedophiles that are of above-average intelligence. Most may not even be considered "dumb". But to imply that there's no difference in distribution of, frankly, dumb people to smart people between different behaviors is absurd in that it ignores any sort of relation implication that intelligence has on said behaviors. As a group, the data does not suggest that pedophiles are exceptionally intelligent, but rather the opposite. So yes, while I believe there is a privacy concern (I said earlier I would not want such software or hardware running on my own compuer), I stand by my conclusion that CSAM detection would catch a significant number of pedophiles and probably continue to do so for some time. The point of such systems isn't to be a superweapon to catch every pedophile. The ones that it might catch happen to be the ones who are most likely to offend. If you play the stupid game of uploading CSAM to Apple iCloud, you win the stupid prize of getting convicted, and it just so happens that a ton of pedophiles are likely to do something that boneheaded.
  - jjjensen90 5y ago
    I think your response is emotionally-charged and mixes feelings with data and anecdotes, which is unhelpful in a complex discussion of a sensitive topic, so I hesitate to engage further, but… I’ve reviewed much of the existing data on minor-attracted persons (which is scant). The problem is that the samples are heavily biased towards including individuals who are caught or self-admit for care, which is not a very good representative sample. As a few of the studies and articles you posted mention, there was little study done until very recently. You also make the leap without supporting data that this system would catch those most likely to offend. Generally I would say the data is insufficient to conclude in any direction other than dumber people get caught doing crimes at a higher rate than smarter people. Lastly, I have some serious doubts about your expertise in mental health and the study thereof from your use of “mentally retarded” and “retardedness”. You should know for future discussions that the clinical terminology has shifted to “intellectually disability”.
kelnos 5y ago
That sounds like survivorship bias. Of course the people who get caught for doing things the stupid way are going to be branded as stupid. How about the people who don't get caught, or the people who get caught despite doing a decent job of covering their tracks? What evidence do you have that most pedophiles are of the stupid sort?
simondotau 5y ago
You don't have to be intelligent to know that CSAM is super illegal and you probably don't want them to be co-mingled with pictures of your mum and last night's dinner.
- ravenstine 5y ago
  Except intelligence is clustered with other pathologies such as poor impulse control. Knowledge of the law is not the end-all-be-all of human behavior. Both the intelligent and unintelligent are capable of poor impulse control, but the unintelligent are statistically much more likely to exhibit a lack of impulse control, among other things such as difficulty in long-term reasoning and connecting one's actions with adverse effects.
  - simondotau 5y ago
    I've never lacked the impulse control to import regular porn into my photo library. And regular porn only comes with the risk of embarrassment, not prison.
dragonwriter 5y ago
> child predators don't exactly have a track record for intelligence Maybe that's true of the ones that get caught, but if so there's a good chance that at least part of that is inverse survivorship bias. (Similar to “Why are most of the CIA covert missions you hear about failures?”)

jjjensen90 5y ago

This is not true and a harmful generalization. There are dumb people of every type. There are probably smart people you respect that engage in CSAM and are minor-attracted. This kind of privacy invasion will only net a tiny section of that population, as most know that lack of caution is life or death.

ravenstine 5y ago
> This is not true and a harmful generalization. There are dumb people of every type. That's purely specious, and you say it as if I ever asserted there aren't "dumb people of every type.", which I didn't say. Yes, there are dumb people of every "type". Are there as many intelligent people as those of low intelligence who struggle to think abstractly, struggle to read and write, have poor motor control, rely heavily on dogma for a moral compass, or have trouble with impulse control? If you think there are as many people with a high IQ as a low IQ with those traits, I don't think you're being honest. Here's some data for you: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4478390/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4478390/ https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/14744183/ https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/14744183/ https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/961457/ https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/961457/ https://www.dw.com/en/scientists-find-brain-differences-in-pedophiles/a-16305968 https://www.dw.com/en/scientists-find-brain-differences-in-p... https://sci-hubtw.hkvisa.net/10.1023/a:1018754004962 https://sci-hubtw.hkvisa.net/10.1023/a:1018754004962 https://www.livescience.com/4671-study-pedophiles-tend-shorter.html https://www.livescience.com/4671-study-pedophiles-tend-short... https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/29625377/ https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/29625377/ Are most pedophiles of low intelligence overall? It's doubtful, but there's room for more study. Are the pedophiles that are offenders of low intelligence? Significantly more offending pedophiles are of low intelligence than the general population. Yes, the factors at play may also apply to other forms of crime. But when you factor out non-offending pedophiles, those we aren't as concerned with in regards to CSAM, the ones that are caught aren't exactly the cream of the crop. Furthermore, I've met a handful of pedophiles, both convicted and not. Every one of them either was clearly mentally retarded or bordering on retardedness, or they had a severe personality disorder. Yes, it's a small sample size, but the ones that were caught did so doing the dumbest of shit (putting aside the horrific nature of child exploitation in the first place). This even includes a female pedophile, who was both stupid and psychopathic, and I find it funny that one of those studies questions the very existence of female pedophiles. There are many pedophiles that are of above-average intelligence. Most may not even be considered "dumb". But to imply that there's no difference in distribution of, frankly, dumb people to smart people between different behaviors is absurd in that it ignores any sort of relation implication that intelligence has on said behaviors. As a group, the data does not suggest that pedophiles are exceptionally intelligent, but rather the opposite. So yes, while I believe there is a privacy concern (I said earlier I would not want such software or hardware running on my own compuer), I stand by my conclusion that CSAM detection would catch a significant number of pedophiles and probably continue to do so for some time. The point of such systems isn't to be a superweapon to catch every pedophile. The ones that it might catch happen to be the ones who are most likely to offend. If you play the stupid game of uploading CSAM to Apple iCloud, you win the stupid prize of getting convicted, and it just so happens that a ton of pedophiles are likely to do something that boneheaded.
- jjjensen90 5y ago
  I think your response is emotionally-charged and mixes feelings with data and anecdotes, which is unhelpful in a complex discussion of a sensitive topic, so I hesitate to engage further, but… I’ve reviewed much of the existing data on minor-attracted persons (which is scant). The problem is that the samples are heavily biased towards including individuals who are caught or self-admit for care, which is not a very good representative sample. As a few of the studies and articles you posted mention, there was little study done until very recently. You also make the leap without supporting data that this system would catch those most likely to offend. Generally I would say the data is insufficient to conclude in any direction other than dumber people get caught doing crimes at a higher rate than smarter people. Lastly, I have some serious doubts about your expertise in mental health and the study thereof from your use of “mentally retarded” and “retardedness”. You should know for future discussions that the clinical terminology has shifted to “intellectually disability”.

kelnos 5y ago

That sounds like survivorship bias. Of course the people who get caught for doing things the stupid way are going to be branded as stupid. How about the people who don't get caught, or the people who get caught despite doing a decent job of covering their tracks? What evidence do you have that most pedophiles are of the stupid sort?

simondotau 5y ago

You don't have to be intelligent to know that CSAM is super illegal and you probably don't want them to be co-mingled with pictures of your mum and last night's dinner.

ravenstine 5y ago
Except intelligence is clustered with other pathologies such as poor impulse control. Knowledge of the law is not the end-all-be-all of human behavior. Both the intelligent and unintelligent are capable of poor impulse control, but the unintelligent are statistically much more likely to exhibit a lack of impulse control, among other things such as difficulty in long-term reasoning and connecting one's actions with adverse effects.
- simondotau 5y ago
  I've never lacked the impulse control to import regular porn into my photo library. And regular porn only comes with the risk of embarrassment, not prison.

dragonwriter 5y ago

> child predators don't exactly have a track record for intelligence Maybe that's true of the ones that get caught, but if so there's a good chance that at least part of that is inverse survivorship bias. (Similar to “Why are most of the CIA covert missions you hear about failures?”)