3 ms·

This is true in most cases but not all. I deal with data going onto government forms, see lots of work visas etc. The U.S. government is more than happy to tell

by ktsmith 15y ago

This is true in most cases but not all. I deal with data going onto government forms, see lots of work visas etc. The U.S. government is more than happy to tell you that your name is invalid, or data enter garbage into their databases to make the name conform to the standard. Then we have to enforce the same standards on our users even if it doesn't make sense because we have to exactly match what the governments records contain.

saurik 15y ago
Can you provide an example of such a document from the US government that requires a split apart first/last name? I am not saying you are wrong: I am simply deeply curious (as the ones I have dealt with ask for "full name").
- ktsmith 15y ago
  The Form I-9 is one example: http://www.uscis.gov/files/form/i-9.pdf http://www.uscis.gov/files/form/i-9.pdf The Form W-4 is another. http://www.irs.gov/pub/irs-pdf/fw4p.pdf http://www.irs.gov/pub/irs-pdf/fw4p.pdf For employers enrolled in the E-Verify program having incorrect name data on the Form I-9 can start a process where an employee is flagged as possibly not being eligible to work in the US.
  - saurik 15y ago
    So, the pattern that I found in all of the documents I dealt with, is that if you are filling in /your/ name, it might ask you to break it apart, but if you are filling in /someone else's/ name, it asks for "full name". As you are not supposed to be filling in the name field on an I-9 or a W-4 for your employees, so you should not end up in a situation where your internal wbaite (or whatever) that asked for "full name" screws you. However, note that the "new name" field on the I-9, which is an area of the document you fill out, is not broken apart by first/last.
    - ktsmith 15y ago
      I think the pattern is that if the name is relevant data to what the form is used for it's broken out, possibly to aid with data entry. When the name is attached to a signature then it's just so that there's a legible version. With the I-9 specifically section one is done by the employee, section two and three are done by the employer. All of the data in the form pertains to the employees work eligibility and there are rules about what the name in section one says when compared to the documents that are presented for section two or three. So the name in section one is data. The name in section two doesn't really matter as it's just a witness, the company is ultimately responsible for errors in the form, unless there's a criminal issue (document abuse, fraud, perjury, etc). So as with pretty much every form they ask for the printed name since there's a good chance the signature will be illegible. The new name in section three also isn't really important as it's rarely used. You only update the I-9 form and fill in section three on a name change if the persons work eligibility documents need to be updated. Since it's a small percentage of the cases that section three will be used for the government doesn't care too much. What's more interesting to me is they don't even ask for the print name of the person signing section three.
      - saurik 15y ago
        Given that Section One of I-9 is done by the employee, I fail to see how this form (or the W-4) is a case that would force you to enforce any "standards on [y]our users [...] because [you] have to exactly match what the government records contain". It still seems like, when asking for other peoples' names, you can still go with "full name" and not run into any problems when filling out government forms related to that user.
        ktsmith 15y ago
        Where you do run into problems is with people that have one name, or more than three names. Splitting those up wrong or putting them into the wrong fields can constitue a technical error on the forms, with the I-9 that means accruing civil liability. Also with the I-9 form, if the employer is in the E-Verify program you are increasing the odds that an employee will fail to pass verification. The documentation for employers on how to complete the Form I-9 is 65 pages. That doesn't include the full regulations that are in the federal register, guidance issued by USCIS, or the extra rules that are part of E-Verify.
rmc 15y ago
Just cause someone else does it doesn't mean that you should do it. If you need to match against another data provider, e.g. government database, then you should tell you users that. Tell them that you can't continue unless they "enter their name the same as it's in their passport". I assume you users are interested in your service, so they will want to enter the correct information.
- ktsmith 15y ago
  > Just cause someone else does it doesn't mean that you should do it. The same is true for the advice in this article. Our testing, combined with legal requirements, has shown that we get the best results when fields are split apart and match the paper version of the form we are digitizing exactly. > If you need to match against another data provider, e.g. government database, then you should tell you users that. Tell them that you can't continue unless they "enter their name the same as it's in their passport". We can't ask the user to "enter their name the same as it's in their passport" for a number of reasons including: we don't know what type of identity documents they have, foreign identity documents may contain name information in a different format than stored by the US government, it could be considered discriminatory. The data is submitted to the government long after the users involvement with the process is complete. There's no way to have it checked in real time or while the user is still present. The government provides no useful feedback about what information collected was incorrect. We are simply directed to have the user contact one of several government agencies. Getting it right the first time is extremely important, trying to combine fields and break them out on the back end can lead to negative consequences for our users and liability for our clients if done improperly. > I assume you users are interested in your service, so they will want to enter the correct information. The users don't have much of a choice and when they were doing this process on paper they would routinely get it wrong. Making the electronic data collection process as error free as possible is much more important than a few seconds saved by unifying form fields. Especially if incorrectly processing those unified form fields may have negative consequences for the user as it can in our case.

by ktsmith 15y ago

saurik 15y ago

Can you provide an example of such a document from the US government that requires a split apart first/last name? I am not saying you are wrong: I am simply deeply curious (as the ones I have dealt with ask for "full name").

ktsmith 15y ago
The Form I-9 is one example: http://www.uscis.gov/files/form/i-9.pdf http://www.uscis.gov/files/form/i-9.pdf The Form W-4 is another. http://www.irs.gov/pub/irs-pdf/fw4p.pdf http://www.irs.gov/pub/irs-pdf/fw4p.pdf For employers enrolled in the E-Verify program having incorrect name data on the Form I-9 can start a process where an employee is flagged as possibly not being eligible to work in the US.
- saurik 15y ago
  So, the pattern that I found in all of the documents I dealt with, is that if you are filling in /your/ name, it might ask you to break it apart, but if you are filling in /someone else's/ name, it asks for "full name". As you are not supposed to be filling in the name field on an I-9 or a W-4 for your employees, so you should not end up in a situation where your internal wbaite (or whatever) that asked for "full name" screws you. However, note that the "new name" field on the I-9, which is an area of the document you fill out, is not broken apart by first/last.
  - ktsmith 15y ago
    I think the pattern is that if the name is relevant data to what the form is used for it's broken out, possibly to aid with data entry. When the name is attached to a signature then it's just so that there's a legible version. With the I-9 specifically section one is done by the employee, section two and three are done by the employer. All of the data in the form pertains to the employees work eligibility and there are rules about what the name in section one says when compared to the documents that are presented for section two or three. So the name in section one is data. The name in section two doesn't really matter as it's just a witness, the company is ultimately responsible for errors in the form, unless there's a criminal issue (document abuse, fraud, perjury, etc). So as with pretty much every form they ask for the printed name since there's a good chance the signature will be illegible. The new name in section three also isn't really important as it's rarely used. You only update the I-9 form and fill in section three on a name change if the persons work eligibility documents need to be updated. Since it's a small percentage of the cases that section three will be used for the government doesn't care too much. What's more interesting to me is they don't even ask for the print name of the person signing section three.
    - saurik 15y ago
      Given that Section One of I-9 is done by the employee, I fail to see how this form (or the W-4) is a case that would force you to enforce any "standards on [y]our users [...] because [you] have to exactly match what the government records contain". It still seems like, when asking for other peoples' names, you can still go with "full name" and not run into any problems when filling out government forms related to that user.
      - ktsmith 15y ago
        Where you do run into problems is with people that have one name, or more than three names. Splitting those up wrong or putting them into the wrong fields can constitue a technical error on the forms, with the I-9 that means accruing civil liability. Also with the I-9 form, if the employer is in the E-Verify program you are increasing the odds that an employee will fail to pass verification. The documentation for employers on how to complete the Form I-9 is 65 pages. That doesn't include the full regulations that are in the federal register, guidance issued by USCIS, or the extra rules that are part of E-Verify.

rmc 15y ago

Just cause someone else does it doesn't mean that you should do it. If you need to match against another data provider, e.g. government database, then you should tell you users that. Tell them that you can't continue unless they "enter their name the same as it's in their passport". I assume you users are interested in your service, so they will want to enter the correct information.

ktsmith 15y ago
> Just cause someone else does it doesn't mean that you should do it. The same is true for the advice in this article. Our testing, combined with legal requirements, has shown that we get the best results when fields are split apart and match the paper version of the form we are digitizing exactly. > If you need to match against another data provider, e.g. government database, then you should tell you users that. Tell them that you can't continue unless they "enter their name the same as it's in their passport". We can't ask the user to "enter their name the same as it's in their passport" for a number of reasons including: we don't know what type of identity documents they have, foreign identity documents may contain name information in a different format than stored by the US government, it could be considered discriminatory. The data is submitted to the government long after the users involvement with the process is complete. There's no way to have it checked in real time or while the user is still present. The government provides no useful feedback about what information collected was incorrect. We are simply directed to have the user contact one of several government agencies. Getting it right the first time is extremely important, trying to combine fields and break them out on the back end can lead to negative consequences for our users and liability for our clients if done improperly. > I assume you users are interested in your service, so they will want to enter the correct information. The users don't have much of a choice and when they were doing this process on paper they would routinely get it wrong. Making the electronic data collection process as error free as possible is much more important than a few seconds saved by unifying form fields. Especially if incorrectly processing those unified form fields may have negative consequences for the user as it can in our case.