4 ms·

> The images may not be CASM and the idea that a moderation queue results in felony charges is near ridiculous. Agree, and I think this is backed up by real wo

> The images may not be CASM and the idea that a moderation queue results in felony charges is near ridiculous. Agree, and I think this is backed up by real world experience. Has Facebook or anyone working on their behalf ever been charged for possession of CSAM? I guarantee they've seen some. Probably a lot, in fact. That's why we have recurring discussions about the workers and the compensation they get (or not) for the really horrid work they are tasked with.

hpoe 5y ago
The problem isn't the idea of CASM, it's that what happens when they start scanning for "misinformation", or whatever else they want to come up with at that point.
- whoknowswhat11 5y ago
  Then why not wait until that actual issue comes up. The look is so bad / awkward with this big protest over something that many people are not going to find at all objectionable. Do you really think Apple's brand has been "destroyed" over this?
  - rootusrootus 5y ago
    IMO the risk is that the reaction will be viewed amongst the general population as an overreaction, leading to it being ignored on the next go around. Many people are going to listen to what Apple says, look at their piles of technical documentation, see the word CSAM, and conclude that the opposing side is crazy.
Xamayon 5y ago
From what I understand it's even more cut and dry than that. If you submit a report to the NCMEC you are generally required to (securely) keep a copy of the image(s) being reported and any related info for a period of time. That's part of the rules. You are also only compelled to report things that you know are bad, so verification before reporting makes sense. The idea that they would be charged with a crime for doing what is essentially required by law is flat out wrong. Unless they are storing the material insecurely once confirmed bad or otherwise mishandling the process, they seem to be following the law as I understand it. IANAL but I have an account with the NCMEC for a service I run, so I have looked through their documentation and relevant laws to try to understand the requirements placed on me as a service provider.
- whoknowswhat11 5y ago
  Thank you for a first hand report. All that makes sense - you clearly can't and shouldn't "pass around images" even in the office - so fair that it is super strict once something is confirmed as X.
judge2020 5y ago
> Probably a lot, in fact. > In 2020, FotoForensics received 931,466 pictures and submitted 523 reports to NCMEC; that's 0.056%. During the same year, Facebook submitted 20,307,216 reports to NCMEC https://www.hackerfactor.com/blog/index.php?/archives/929-One-Bad-Apple.html#:~:text=In%202020%2C%20FotoForensics%20received%20931%2C466%20pictures%20and%20submitted%20523%20reports%20to%20NCMEC%3B%20that%27s%200.056%25.%20During%20the%20same%20year%2C%20Facebook%20submitted%2020%2C307%2C216%20reports%20to%20NCMEC https://www.hackerfactor.com/blog/index.php?/archives/929-On....
tetha 5y ago
More of an anecdote, but our software allows users to upload files, documents, images and such. This in turn means, technically speaking, our platform could be used to distribute malware or other illegal content. I've asked: Well what happens if that occurs and we as a company becomes aware? Overall, we're advised to take about these steps there. First off, report it. Second, remove all access for the customer, terminate the accounts, lock them out asap. Third, prevent access to the content without touching it. For example, if it sits on a file system and a web server could serve it, blacklist URLs on a loadbalancer. Fourth, if necessary, begin archiving and securing evidence. But if possible in any way, disable content deletion mechanisms and wait for legal advice, or the law enforcement to tell you how to gather the data. But overall, you're not immediately guilty for someone abusing your service, and no one is instantly guilty for detecting someone is abusing your service.

hpoe 5y ago

The problem isn't the idea of CASM, it's that what happens when they start scanning for "misinformation", or whatever else they want to come up with at that point.

whoknowswhat11 5y ago
Then why not wait until that actual issue comes up. The look is so bad / awkward with this big protest over something that many people are not going to find at all objectionable. Do you really think Apple's brand has been "destroyed" over this?
- rootusrootus 5y ago
  IMO the risk is that the reaction will be viewed amongst the general population as an overreaction, leading to it being ignored on the next go around. Many people are going to listen to what Apple says, look at their piles of technical documentation, see the word CSAM, and conclude that the opposing side is crazy.

Xamayon 5y ago

From what I understand it's even more cut and dry than that. If you submit a report to the NCMEC you are generally required to (securely) keep a copy of the image(s) being reported and any related info for a period of time. That's part of the rules. You are also only compelled to report things that you know are bad, so verification before reporting makes sense. The idea that they would be charged with a crime for doing what is essentially required by law is flat out wrong. Unless they are storing the material insecurely once confirmed bad or otherwise mishandling the process, they seem to be following the law as I understand it. IANAL but I have an account with the NCMEC for a service I run, so I have looked through their documentation and relevant laws to try to understand the requirements placed on me as a service provider.

whoknowswhat11 5y ago
Thank you for a first hand report. All that makes sense - you clearly can't and shouldn't "pass around images" even in the office - so fair that it is super strict once something is confirmed as X.

judge2020 5y ago

> Probably a lot, in fact. > In 2020, FotoForensics received 931,466 pictures and submitted 523 reports to NCMEC; that's 0.056%. During the same year, Facebook submitted 20,307,216 reports to NCMEC https://www.hackerfactor.com/blog/index.php?/archives/929-One-Bad-Apple.html#:~:text=In%202020%2C%20FotoForensics%20received%20931%2C466%20pictures%20and%20submitted%20523%20reports%20to%20NCMEC%3B%20that%27s%200.056%25.%20During%20the%20same%20year%2C%20Facebook%20submitted%2020%2C307%2C216%20reports%20to%20NCMEC https://www.hackerfactor.com/blog/index.php?/archives/929-On....

tetha 5y ago

More of an anecdote, but our software allows users to upload files, documents, images and such. This in turn means, technically speaking, our platform could be used to distribute malware or other illegal content. I've asked: Well what happens if that occurs and we as a company becomes aware? Overall, we're advised to take about these steps there. First off, report it. Second, remove all access for the customer, terminate the accounts, lock them out asap. Third, prevent access to the content without touching it. For example, if it sits on a file system and a web server could serve it, blacklist URLs on a loadbalancer. Fourth, if necessary, begin archiving and securing evidence. But if possible in any way, disable content deletion mechanisms and wait for legal advice, or the law enforcement to tell you how to gather the data. But overall, you're not immediately guilty for someone abusing your service, and no one is instantly guilty for detecting someone is abusing your service.