6 ms·

> I think it is time for a big rethink. I'm in. Where's the convention, and how do we get our idiot representatives to play along?

arminiusreturns 5y ago
You refuse the two party system and work on a third party geared towards pre-emptive avoidance of the corruption mechanisms that got the two big ones. Do that at the local and state level first, attacking gerrymandering and other incumbent favoring electoral manipulation methods to weaken the two party strangle hold, such as heavy petitioning and lobbying to force state Secretaries of State to fix election laws. Until we the people are actually represented in the legislative branch nothing fundamental will change. Being that the other branches are largely unaccountable to the citizenry, the legislative branch is the logical entity to focus on (and the fourth estate, heavily under attack by the executive et al)
- godelski 5y ago
  Honestly voting is high on my priority list. The reason is because I believe that voting will have a lot of downstream effects. It will make a lot of other things easier. But I don't believe we should be trying to change things at the national level at this point (that's down the line). I think we should be trying to implement systems like STAR and Approval at local levels. City, County, State. We know that these are the systems the experts are suggesting. So let's stop doing the same experiment we've seen fail a hundred times. And while the dragon is the end goal, if we can't defeat the low level monsters it would be insane to go fight the final boss.
  - some_hacker_55 5y ago
    So status quo then. Cmon hackers, think harder…
- frickinLasers 5y ago
  There have been many third parties, and I'm not aware of any that have achieved even middling success (maybe Libertarian?) since I've been alive. How would this party fare any better?
- not2b 5y ago
  Under the US system as it is, with first-past-the-post voting and all votes for a state going to the presidential candidate who got the most, a third party can't gain any traction. Worse, third parties under the US system are another vehicle for corruption (example: Republicans paying fees and collecting signatures to get Greens on the ballot to divide the left vote and get a Republican in office, though this problem could be fixed with some form of instant runoff). You'd need constitutional reform. While imperfect, I think that German electoral system is much better. Any party that gets 5% or more of the vote is guaranteed fair representation, gerrymandering isn't a possibility. However, in a multiparty system deals still have to be struck to put together governing coalitions, so a party that insists on being purist is likely to be shut out.
  - amznthrwaway 5y ago
    The third party would need to get local traction first. This is the best way forward on a number of dimensions, but most third party candidates go national instead, because while it cannot effect change, it is substantially more profitable.
  - dane-pgp 5y ago
    > to get Greens on the ballot to divide the left vote and get a Republican in office If people are serious about voting reform (and they should be) then this "spoiler effect" can be weaponized: start a grassroots campaign to vote third party until the Democrats support changing the voting system at the state level (and vote in primaries for Democrats who support this change). This may lead to few tight state races being lost, but that means that only a small percentage of the population would be enough to get the Democratic Party officials to take notice. To make the signal even more clear, the third party chosen should be one that focuses as narrowly as possible on voting reform, such as the Alliance Party[0], which may also encourage some disgruntled Republicans to temporarily lend their votes, whereas they would be more reluctant to support the Green Party, for example. Of course there is a danger that voting reform would get portrayed as a pro-Democrat policy (if it isn't already), but once enough Republicans (in majority Democrat states) have experience casting their ballot in a more expressive and representative system, it will be harder for Republicans in other states to oppose it. [0] https://www.theallianceparty.com/political_reform https://www.theallianceparty.com/political_reform
godelski 5y ago
Here's my positions, but of course I'm open to other opinions. I wrote a big list and I realized I could distill a lot of my ideas. For one I'm a big fan of STAR and Approval voting. We've seen over a hundred years of ordinal methods in various countries (including America) and seen the failure. Time to move to what the experts are suggesting. Which brings me to the second point. Lots of these topics are extremely complex and contain a lot of nuance. Us non-experts can see a high level but sometimes these nuanced points matter a lot. So let's not be so aggressive in asserting how right we are. Also, we need to focus on unity. Mic drops and calling people names doesn't help us. We need nuanced and calm conversations. Our fellow citizens, no matter how crazy their beliefs, are not our enemies. Don't dehumanize people, that's divide and rule. Lastly, we need to stay focused. I think there is a new thing to be outraged about every other day. Let's talk about what the big important problems are and focus on those first. Let's recognize that doing so isn't dismissing the other problems. We only have so much bandwidth. Right now we have no such priority list, we're just jumping from thing to thing. Solving problems takes time (a thing we often forget). If our attention to the problem is shorter than the time it takes to solve the problem then we will never solve these problems. Edit: One thing I wanted to add is that we can have different groups focus on different things. It's not a zero sum game. This is because not everyone is an expert in everything, and thus the utility they contribute isn't the same as every task they contribute to.
- ClayShentrup 5y ago
  Approval voting and STAR voting are the BOSS.

arminiusreturns 5y ago

You refuse the two party system and work on a third party geared towards pre-emptive avoidance of the corruption mechanisms that got the two big ones. Do that at the local and state level first, attacking gerrymandering and other incumbent favoring electoral manipulation methods to weaken the two party strangle hold, such as heavy petitioning and lobbying to force state Secretaries of State to fix election laws. Until we the people are actually represented in the legislative branch nothing fundamental will change. Being that the other branches are largely unaccountable to the citizenry, the legislative branch is the logical entity to focus on (and the fourth estate, heavily under attack by the executive et al)

godelski 5y ago
Honestly voting is high on my priority list. The reason is because I believe that voting will have a lot of downstream effects. It will make a lot of other things easier. But I don't believe we should be trying to change things at the national level at this point (that's down the line). I think we should be trying to implement systems like STAR and Approval at local levels. City, County, State. We know that these are the systems the experts are suggesting. So let's stop doing the same experiment we've seen fail a hundred times. And while the dragon is the end goal, if we can't defeat the low level monsters it would be insane to go fight the final boss.
- some_hacker_55 5y ago
  So status quo then. Cmon hackers, think harder…
frickinLasers 5y ago
There have been many third parties, and I'm not aware of any that have achieved even middling success (maybe Libertarian?) since I've been alive. How would this party fare any better?
not2b 5y ago
Under the US system as it is, with first-past-the-post voting and all votes for a state going to the presidential candidate who got the most, a third party can't gain any traction. Worse, third parties under the US system are another vehicle for corruption (example: Republicans paying fees and collecting signatures to get Greens on the ballot to divide the left vote and get a Republican in office, though this problem could be fixed with some form of instant runoff). You'd need constitutional reform. While imperfect, I think that German electoral system is much better. Any party that gets 5% or more of the vote is guaranteed fair representation, gerrymandering isn't a possibility. However, in a multiparty system deals still have to be struck to put together governing coalitions, so a party that insists on being purist is likely to be shut out.
- amznthrwaway 5y ago
  The third party would need to get local traction first. This is the best way forward on a number of dimensions, but most third party candidates go national instead, because while it cannot effect change, it is substantially more profitable.
- dane-pgp 5y ago
  > to get Greens on the ballot to divide the left vote and get a Republican in office If people are serious about voting reform (and they should be) then this "spoiler effect" can be weaponized: start a grassroots campaign to vote third party until the Democrats support changing the voting system at the state level (and vote in primaries for Democrats who support this change). This may lead to few tight state races being lost, but that means that only a small percentage of the population would be enough to get the Democratic Party officials to take notice. To make the signal even more clear, the third party chosen should be one that focuses as narrowly as possible on voting reform, such as the Alliance Party[0], which may also encourage some disgruntled Republicans to temporarily lend their votes, whereas they would be more reluctant to support the Green Party, for example. Of course there is a danger that voting reform would get portrayed as a pro-Democrat policy (if it isn't already), but once enough Republicans (in majority Democrat states) have experience casting their ballot in a more expressive and representative system, it will be harder for Republicans in other states to oppose it. [0] https://www.theallianceparty.com/political_reform https://www.theallianceparty.com/political_reform

godelski 5y ago

Here's my positions, but of course I'm open to other opinions. I wrote a big list and I realized I could distill a lot of my ideas. For one I'm a big fan of STAR and Approval voting. We've seen over a hundred years of ordinal methods in various countries (including America) and seen the failure. Time to move to what the experts are suggesting. Which brings me to the second point. Lots of these topics are extremely complex and contain a lot of nuance. Us non-experts can see a high level but sometimes these nuanced points matter a lot. So let's not be so aggressive in asserting how right we are. Also, we need to focus on unity. Mic drops and calling people names doesn't help us. We need nuanced and calm conversations. Our fellow citizens, no matter how crazy their beliefs, are not our enemies. Don't dehumanize people, that's divide and rule. Lastly, we need to stay focused. I think there is a new thing to be outraged about every other day. Let's talk about what the big important problems are and focus on those first. Let's recognize that doing so isn't dismissing the other problems. We only have so much bandwidth. Right now we have no such priority list, we're just jumping from thing to thing. Solving problems takes time (a thing we often forget). If our attention to the problem is shorter than the time it takes to solve the problem then we will never solve these problems. Edit: One thing I wanted to add is that we can have different groups focus on different things. It's not a zero sum game. This is because not everyone is an expert in everything, and thus the utility they contribute isn't the same as every task they contribute to.

ClayShentrup 5y ago
Approval voting and STAR voting are the BOSS.