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I dislike this in that it promotes ageist thinking in many people. There is a presumption that younger people will have a higher slope. In one sense, it's true

I dislike this in that it promotes ageist thinking in many people. There is a presumption that younger people will have a higher slope. In one sense, it's true. Consider the weightlifting analogy. It is easier to train to deadlift from half your body weight to 1x your body weight, than is is to deadlift 2x your body weight to 2.5x your body weight. Similarly, capable junior developers become "mid-level" and sometimes "senior" developers in two years. They learn how to build a system. They learn how to be on a team. On good teams, they learn good design principles. Fast forward and take that same developer with 18 years of experience. In the next two years, how much are they stretching? Or maybe, we can consider the intercept. It takes that developer 2 weeks to become proficient in a new library, and it takes a junior developer of similar general aptitude 2 months. How do you consider growth there? For the more experienced developer, their actual slope is pretty low: they didn't learn any new concepts, they just learned a new syntax. The junior developer has a high slope: they learned entirely new concepts. So, we will diminish the slope of an experienced developer in most cases. So, don't use this as an excuse to discriminate against the 60 year old developer because you're "worried about the slope."

slumdev 5y ago
A lifelong learner with decades of experience will outperform a 5-year "senior" many times over, not just in output but also in the headaches and mess that they save you from having to experience. What we need is better titling. There's nothing shameful about being a junior or a mid-level for multiple years each. Until we get that, one can usually tease out the "seniorness" of the position by discussing salary.
- ebiester 5y ago
  So, that's an orthogonal problem. I was pointing to the direct advice and suggesting that people will look at this advice and their prejudices will lead them to hire a younger person over an older person because the older person will be mispercieved as having a "lower slope."
  - slumdev 5y ago
    Yep. I think we run into a different problem, which is the diminishing return to the employer. Even if a person's growth is linear, most companies' ability to realize a return on that growth probably isn't. It's not that the companies couldn't benefit from experience if they knew how to realize that benefit. It's more that their processes are set up in a way that prevents the benefit from being realized. I'm thinking about heavy-handed architectural diktats and constantly changing priorities when I write this.
karmakaze 5y ago
I don't find this at all. Myself as an experienced developer can drop into any situation, survey the terrain, not knowing any of the terminology or idioms same as with a junior. I would much more quickly be able to map out what I find into parallels of what I already know and be proficient much faster than someone who's climbing slope quickly. Basically I was high up on one hill and merely learned to translate (shift over) to another one. The way to deal with this and the other is to think of the y-axis in terms not of learning, but of becoming proficient. The better job posts are clearly aware of this, stating what stack they use, but that they're open to experts on any stack. There's also actual benefit to having a lot of high slope interns. They are sponges and learn fast, have the least to unlearn or conflicting past knowledge, and together with high y-intercept experts is the best combo I've found.
cortesoft 5y ago
This is all about value to the company… they have to pay the 60 year old the actual value of their work, because it is established and known. The 22 year old they can pay at an entry level rate, and then in a few years be getting intermediate value for that same entry level rate.
- ebiester 5y ago
  How often are early developers staying for long enough to realize that value anymore? Or, alternatively, how often are they given pay bumps because it would otherwise be logical for them to leave?
- sellyme 5y ago
  > and then in a few years be getting intermediate value for that same entry level rate. If you're expecting to pay someone an entry-level rate ~3 years into their career you're going to be getting exactly zero value out of them as they will get a job at a company that pays them what they're worth.

slumdev 5y ago

A lifelong learner with decades of experience will outperform a 5-year "senior" many times over, not just in output but also in the headaches and mess that they save you from having to experience. What we need is better titling. There's nothing shameful about being a junior or a mid-level for multiple years each. Until we get that, one can usually tease out the "seniorness" of the position by discussing salary.

ebiester 5y ago
So, that's an orthogonal problem. I was pointing to the direct advice and suggesting that people will look at this advice and their prejudices will lead them to hire a younger person over an older person because the older person will be mispercieved as having a "lower slope."
- slumdev 5y ago
  Yep. I think we run into a different problem, which is the diminishing return to the employer. Even if a person's growth is linear, most companies' ability to realize a return on that growth probably isn't. It's not that the companies couldn't benefit from experience if they knew how to realize that benefit. It's more that their processes are set up in a way that prevents the benefit from being realized. I'm thinking about heavy-handed architectural diktats and constantly changing priorities when I write this.

karmakaze 5y ago

I don't find this at all. Myself as an experienced developer can drop into any situation, survey the terrain, not knowing any of the terminology or idioms same as with a junior. I would much more quickly be able to map out what I find into parallels of what I already know and be proficient much faster than someone who's climbing slope quickly. Basically I was high up on one hill and merely learned to translate (shift over) to another one. The way to deal with this and the other is to think of the y-axis in terms not of learning, but of becoming proficient. The better job posts are clearly aware of this, stating what stack they use, but that they're open to experts on any stack. There's also actual benefit to having a lot of high slope interns. They are sponges and learn fast, have the least to unlearn or conflicting past knowledge, and together with high y-intercept experts is the best combo I've found.

cortesoft 5y ago

This is all about value to the company… they have to pay the 60 year old the actual value of their work, because it is established and known. The 22 year old they can pay at an entry level rate, and then in a few years be getting intermediate value for that same entry level rate.

ebiester 5y ago
How often are early developers staying for long enough to realize that value anymore? Or, alternatively, how often are they given pay bumps because it would otherwise be logical for them to leave?
sellyme 5y ago
> and then in a few years be getting intermediate value for that same entry level rate. If you're expecting to pay someone an entry-level rate ~3 years into their career you're going to be getting exactly zero value out of them as they will get a job at a company that pays them what they're worth.