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Sometimes I wonder if placing all this important infrastructure under ground was a big mistake. Seems like issues like this and the Flint water crisis would be

by dyeje 5y ago

Sometimes I wonder if placing all this important infrastructure under ground was a big mistake. Seems like issues like this and the Flint water crisis would be alot easier to remediate if the pipes were easily accessible.

alistairSH 5y ago
Not apples-to-apples, but having living in places with above-ground and below-ground power supply, I know which one I've found more reliable. Yes, maintenance gets more expensive, but that maintenance should be far less frequent. And hopefully more predictable (true maintenance vs emergency repair).
jdavis703 5y ago
I’m not sure above-ground pipes makes a lot of sense. Now every building has to maintain a pump to get sewage high enough off the ground that vehicles can pass under the pipes. And if those pumps fail (e.g. power outage), all of a sudden everyone is dealing with sewage backflow. Something I’d like to see more of is utility tunnels where all utilities are undergrounded in a single tunnel with with easy access. Yes it’s expensive, but could work out in the long run. Just look at how much utility relocation can drive up the cost for simple projects like BRT.
- saalweachter 5y ago
  Let's not forget that the standard place to put water and sewage pipes is "below the frost line".
- xwdv 5y ago
  How do pipes work when terrain isn’t leveled but rather very sloped?
  - PicassoCTs 5y ago
    Sewage pumps in the pipes and https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hebeanlage https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hebeanlage (sorry do not know the english word for that) Synthetic fibres in tissues are a huge issues for these pumps..
    - GravitasFailure 5y ago
      Lift station or pump station, I believe. https://htt.io/resources/lift-station-basics/ https://htt.io/resources/lift-station-basics/
- clipradiowallet 5y ago
  > And if those pumps fail (e.g. power outage), all of a sudden everyone is dealing with sewage backflow. While disgusting...this would have the side effect of those being repaired very quickly I imagine.
  - jdavis703 5y ago
    I suppose it depends on the state. If you’re in Texas or California good luck.
    - satellite2 5y ago
      https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hedonic_treadmill https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hedonic_treadmill
- NoSorryCannot 5y ago
  You don't necessarily even have to tunnel, like one would do with a borer. I think that would be cost-prohibitive. Trench and cover, probably with streets. But it would create a lot of extra void to maintain that would need its own drainage, maintenance to keep it free of debris and pests, inspections to make sure they don't collapse, and security to keep people out. Feasibility is probably commensurate with urban density.
  - bobthepanda 5y ago
    There's also the issue of where you would put all the spoils from tunneling. Historically that was in the ocean and rivers to make more land, but this is frowned upon for a variety of reasons now, the least being that not all types of soil work well as landfill.
- athenot 5y ago
  > Something I’d like to see more of is utility tunnels where all utilities are undergrounded in a single tunnel with with easy access. You've just described the Paris sewer system, where the sewage tunels also house fresh water, power, comms… https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/proxy/wRHK1kkKpNBXt4WWuCQWRcew5p-STfxcMVbExrl9ezq6jm-wB7rJDLLKVLKpx3yILlphCLG_-0RjX_4UTt6UWfk7K8mWIkKa0NBq0CFMZE_z https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/proxy/wRHK1kkKpNBXt4WWuCQW...
yupper32 5y ago
Pros and cons. I'd imagine a lot more problems would occur if pipes were exposed to the elements, for example. And of course, the issue of where to put the pipes when they're above ground.
sandworm101 5y ago
>> if the pipes were easily accessible. Also more accessible to damage from vandals and car crashes. And they would freeze in winter. And they would expand/contract with temperature changes, leading to increased cracking etc. The only places that use above ground water/sewer pipes are those with unsupportive soils such as permafrost or deep sand that would cause breaks.
Dma54rhs 5y ago
Doesn't the Michigan area get cold during the winters? There are many reasons why pipes are underground, even in hotter climates freak weather incidents do happen.
Bayart 5y ago
Back in 1999 we had a massive storm in France. It put large parts of the country in a blackout in the middle of winter because all the electricity infrastructure was above ground. Out neighbours in Germany, who buried everything, were fine. We had water, as it was already underground. Nowadays everything is systematically buried. I'll take the odd risk of contamination and excavator-induced failure over fragile and inconsistent infrastructure every day.

by dyeje 5y ago

alistairSH 5y ago

Not apples-to-apples, but having living in places with above-ground and below-ground power supply, I know which one I've found more reliable. Yes, maintenance gets more expensive, but that maintenance should be far less frequent. And hopefully more predictable (true maintenance vs emergency repair).

jdavis703 5y ago

I’m not sure above-ground pipes makes a lot of sense. Now every building has to maintain a pump to get sewage high enough off the ground that vehicles can pass under the pipes. And if those pumps fail (e.g. power outage), all of a sudden everyone is dealing with sewage backflow. Something I’d like to see more of is utility tunnels where all utilities are undergrounded in a single tunnel with with easy access. Yes it’s expensive, but could work out in the long run. Just look at how much utility relocation can drive up the cost for simple projects like BRT.

saalweachter 5y ago
Let's not forget that the standard place to put water and sewage pipes is "below the frost line".
xwdv 5y ago
How do pipes work when terrain isn’t leveled but rather very sloped?
- PicassoCTs 5y ago
  Sewage pumps in the pipes and https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hebeanlage https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hebeanlage (sorry do not know the english word for that) Synthetic fibres in tissues are a huge issues for these pumps..
  - GravitasFailure 5y ago
    Lift station or pump station, I believe. https://htt.io/resources/lift-station-basics/ https://htt.io/resources/lift-station-basics/
clipradiowallet 5y ago
> And if those pumps fail (e.g. power outage), all of a sudden everyone is dealing with sewage backflow. While disgusting...this would have the side effect of those being repaired very quickly I imagine.
- jdavis703 5y ago
  I suppose it depends on the state. If you’re in Texas or California good luck.
  - satellite2 5y ago
    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hedonic_treadmill https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hedonic_treadmill
NoSorryCannot 5y ago
You don't necessarily even have to tunnel, like one would do with a borer. I think that would be cost-prohibitive. Trench and cover, probably with streets. But it would create a lot of extra void to maintain that would need its own drainage, maintenance to keep it free of debris and pests, inspections to make sure they don't collapse, and security to keep people out. Feasibility is probably commensurate with urban density.
- bobthepanda 5y ago
  There's also the issue of where you would put all the spoils from tunneling. Historically that was in the ocean and rivers to make more land, but this is frowned upon for a variety of reasons now, the least being that not all types of soil work well as landfill.
athenot 5y ago
> Something I’d like to see more of is utility tunnels where all utilities are undergrounded in a single tunnel with with easy access. You've just described the Paris sewer system, where the sewage tunels also house fresh water, power, comms… https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/proxy/wRHK1kkKpNBXt4WWuCQWRcew5p-STfxcMVbExrl9ezq6jm-wB7rJDLLKVLKpx3yILlphCLG_-0RjX_4UTt6UWfk7K8mWIkKa0NBq0CFMZE_z https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/proxy/wRHK1kkKpNBXt4WWuCQW...

yupper32 5y ago

Pros and cons. I'd imagine a lot more problems would occur if pipes were exposed to the elements, for example. And of course, the issue of where to put the pipes when they're above ground.

sandworm101 5y ago

>> if the pipes were easily accessible. Also more accessible to damage from vandals and car crashes. And they would freeze in winter. And they would expand/contract with temperature changes, leading to increased cracking etc. The only places that use above ground water/sewer pipes are those with unsupportive soils such as permafrost or deep sand that would cause breaks.

Dma54rhs 5y ago

Doesn't the Michigan area get cold during the winters? There are many reasons why pipes are underground, even in hotter climates freak weather incidents do happen.

Bayart 5y ago

Back in 1999 we had a massive storm in France. It put large parts of the country in a blackout in the middle of winter because all the electricity infrastructure was above ground. Out neighbours in Germany, who buried everything, were fine. We had water, as it was already underground. Nowadays everything is systematically buried. I'll take the odd risk of contamination and excavator-induced failure over fragile and inconsistent infrastructure every day.