5 ms·

The usual reminder that laser fusion research is done not for potential energy production, but for development of thermonuclear weapons: https://news.ycombinato

by fuoqi 5y ago

The usual reminder that laser fusion research is done not for potential energy production, but for development of thermonuclear weapons: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25210756 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25210756

Fernicia 5y ago
Lots of consumer innovations have been the result of military spending!
- dredmorbius 5y ago
  Word on the street is that "Mr. Fusion" has yet to be slotted for mass-market introduction.
regnull 5y ago
Citation needed. And I got one for you. "The mission of the National Ignition Facility ib to achieve ignition and gain in ICF targets in the laboratory. The facility will be used for defense applications such as weapons physics and weapons effect testing, and for civilian application, such as fusion energy development and fundamental studies of matter at high temperatures and densities. This paper reviews the design, schedule and costs associated with the construction project." So, "fusion energy development". It's sorta both. https://inis.iaea.org/collection/NCLCollectionStore/_Public/26/070/26070714.pdf https://inis.iaea.org/collection/NCLCollectionStore/_Public/...
oh_sigh 5y ago
That doesn't exactly follow. Knowledge of plasma has more applications than just nukes. Maybe it will help nuke design, and maybe that is even a goal of the project, but that doesn't mean that the knowledge gained is binned in "weapons" category and nothing else. And most research fields are not practical at some point in their lifespans, that doesn't mean it will never be practical, or we won't (hopefully) learn things which make other energy technologies practical.
- SiempreViernes 5y ago
  Since testing nuke behaviour is an explicitly stated goal, I don't see how your objection to the assertion that nuclear weapons research is the reason the NIF is getting funded by saying the results could have other uses? Sure the results can have other uses, but that's not why LLNL gets millions each year for running the NIF.
cpleppert 5y ago
Given that the last major technological generation of thermonuclear weapons in the US was the W88 (1988) nuclear warhead with a non-spherical primary I have a heard time imagining that spending tens of billions of dollars starting a decade later was the primary motivation of the NIF. The primary, of course, would have had nothing to do with fusion research. It is unclear what the direct application of research on a small target using massive lasers would be to current generation thermonuclear weapons. Yes, they have stated that the nuclear research labs were contacted by the military; but this occurred after the reported test. Its a stretch to claim that the project is thus military.
- killjoywashere 5y ago
  China and Russia are or have modernized their weapons. A central issue with nuclear weapons is that they decay over time, their nuclear yield falls, inexorably, year after year. The US needs to build a new generation of warheads in order to remain a credible nuclear power, which is critical for a stable world order in the nuclear age. There are some interesting issues though: prior generations of nuclear weapons production involved massive release of highly toxic byproducts. In addition to better control and containment, one would reason that processes with less toxic byproducts would also be desirable. So how do you purify the plutonium cleanly? How do you cut and weld the plutonium to manufacture the parts, cleanly? And how much of this can you tolerate and still produce weapons-grade materials, and weapons-grade parts? Given some modifications in design to accommodate the environmental restrictions, you need to model the reactions to make sure the new designs work. But even if you model everything, you need to validate the models. So you have to test something. So you need to produce high energy plasma for primary and secondary designers to validate their models and their designs. The NIF is a weapons lab instrument for studying fusion reactions. The current hollraum is plutonium, designed to irradiate a deuterium-tritium target. If that doesn't sound like a primary acting on a secondary, I don't know what does. All that is just a high-level counterargument. The real argument though is quite straight forward: LLNL (home of NIF) is a weapons lab. They are not in the nuclear power business.
- SiempreViernes 5y ago
  Due to the moratorium on actually testing the nukes by setting them off, some other means of testing the physics involved is needed to predict how the current warheads behave as they age. This is a super explicit part of all the NIF press releases, and these "stewardship" experiments is what they were doing most of the time last year and. Here's a quote from the LLNL press release as an illustrative example: “This result is a historic step forward for inertial confinement fusion research, opening a fundamentally new regime for exploration and the advancement of our critical national security missions. It is also a testament to the innovation, ingenuity, commitment and grit of this team and the many researchers in this field over the decades who have steadfastly pursued this goal,” said LLNL Director Kim Budil.

by fuoqi 5y ago

Fernicia 5y ago

Lots of consumer innovations have been the result of military spending!

dredmorbius 5y ago
Word on the street is that "Mr. Fusion" has yet to be slotted for mass-market introduction.

regnull 5y ago

Citation needed. And I got one for you. "The mission of the National Ignition Facility ib to achieve ignition and gain in ICF targets in the laboratory. The facility will be used for defense applications such as weapons physics and weapons effect testing, and for civilian application, such as fusion energy development and fundamental studies of matter at high temperatures and densities. This paper reviews the design, schedule and costs associated with the construction project." So, "fusion energy development". It's sorta both. https://inis.iaea.org/collection/NCLCollectionStore/_Public/26/070/26070714.pdf https://inis.iaea.org/collection/NCLCollectionStore/_Public/...

oh_sigh 5y ago

That doesn't exactly follow. Knowledge of plasma has more applications than just nukes. Maybe it will help nuke design, and maybe that is even a goal of the project, but that doesn't mean that the knowledge gained is binned in "weapons" category and nothing else. And most research fields are not practical at some point in their lifespans, that doesn't mean it will never be practical, or we won't (hopefully) learn things which make other energy technologies practical.

SiempreViernes 5y ago
Since testing nuke behaviour is an explicitly stated goal, I don't see how your objection to the assertion that nuclear weapons research is the reason the NIF is getting funded by saying the results could have other uses? Sure the results can have other uses, but that's not why LLNL gets millions each year for running the NIF.

cpleppert 5y ago

Given that the last major technological generation of thermonuclear weapons in the US was the W88 (1988) nuclear warhead with a non-spherical primary I have a heard time imagining that spending tens of billions of dollars starting a decade later was the primary motivation of the NIF. The primary, of course, would have had nothing to do with fusion research. It is unclear what the direct application of research on a small target using massive lasers would be to current generation thermonuclear weapons. Yes, they have stated that the nuclear research labs were contacted by the military; but this occurred after the reported test. Its a stretch to claim that the project is thus military.

killjoywashere 5y ago
China and Russia are or have modernized their weapons. A central issue with nuclear weapons is that they decay over time, their nuclear yield falls, inexorably, year after year. The US needs to build a new generation of warheads in order to remain a credible nuclear power, which is critical for a stable world order in the nuclear age. There are some interesting issues though: prior generations of nuclear weapons production involved massive release of highly toxic byproducts. In addition to better control and containment, one would reason that processes with less toxic byproducts would also be desirable. So how do you purify the plutonium cleanly? How do you cut and weld the plutonium to manufacture the parts, cleanly? And how much of this can you tolerate and still produce weapons-grade materials, and weapons-grade parts? Given some modifications in design to accommodate the environmental restrictions, you need to model the reactions to make sure the new designs work. But even if you model everything, you need to validate the models. So you have to test something. So you need to produce high energy plasma for primary and secondary designers to validate their models and their designs. The NIF is a weapons lab instrument for studying fusion reactions. The current hollraum is plutonium, designed to irradiate a deuterium-tritium target. If that doesn't sound like a primary acting on a secondary, I don't know what does. All that is just a high-level counterargument. The real argument though is quite straight forward: LLNL (home of NIF) is a weapons lab. They are not in the nuclear power business.
SiempreViernes 5y ago
Due to the moratorium on actually testing the nukes by setting them off, some other means of testing the physics involved is needed to predict how the current warheads behave as they age. This is a super explicit part of all the NIF press releases, and these "stewardship" experiments is what they were doing most of the time last year and. Here's a quote from the LLNL press release as an illustrative example: “This result is a historic step forward for inertial confinement fusion research, opening a fundamentally new regime for exploration and the advancement of our critical national security missions. It is also a testament to the innovation, ingenuity, commitment and grit of this team and the many researchers in this field over the decades who have steadfastly pursued this goal,” said LLNL Director Kim Budil.