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> We all know that to combat climate change sacrifices will need to be made like fewer cars and smaller houses (for compact, accessible cities). This statemen

by Glench 5y ago

> We all know that to combat climate change sacrifices will need to be made like fewer cars and smaller houses (for compact, accessible cities). This statement is tinged with the idea of sacrifice and loss that is unfortunately one of the hallmarks of the environmental movement. How about this? We can have an emissions-free future that is much more awesome than now with the same size cars and homes. Rewiring America explains how (hint: electrify everything): https://www.rewiringamerica.org/ https://www.rewiringamerica.org/ Of course, it's also a good idea to reduce our overall consumption, but if you tell people they're going to have to live "worse" lives for the sake of the climate — well I don't think that's true or helpful.

emodendroket 5y ago
It would be great if you were right. But even assuming it's the case, people will have to adjust to the electrical appliances. People in this very community say that they simply cannot learn to cook on an electric stove, or rent a car for the infrequent occasions when they want to travel hundreds of miles, and therefore fossil fuel usage must be continued unabated. Even this level of very small sacrifice is unimaginable. Never mind the kind of more radical change the person you're replying to is talking about.
- josephcsible 5y ago
  Aren't stoves unique among gas appliances in that people prefer them over their electric counterparts for reasons other than cost to operate? Couldn't we reduce residential natural gas use by like 90% just by replacing all of the gas water heaters, clothes dryers, and furnaces with electric equivalents? (Note: I personally like induction stoves the best. I'm not arguing that gas stoves are a good thing, just that we can get 90% of the benefit for only like 10% of the whining by leaving them alone for now.)
  - emodendroket 5y ago
    Well, maybe, but maybe not. Seems like they've been seized on as a wedge issue for natural gas, and if people "must" have them then we "must" maintain a whole natural gas infrastructure for them and can't limit its use for new construction. According to this article, a fair amount of effort goes into astroturfing the cause: https://www.motherjones.com/environment/2021/06/how-the-fossil-fuel-industry-convinced-americans-to-love-gas-stoves/ https://www.motherjones.com/environment/2021/06/how-the-foss...
- Glench 5y ago
  > Even this level of very small sacrifice is unimaginable. Unimaginable to who? I can easily imagine this. The negatives you list are real, but they'll get rapidly better in the next 20 years (longer range cars, more charging stations for example). But in focusing on the negatives you (and the people you say you're speaking for) forget the positives: - Electric cars already have the lowest cost of ownership of any cars and are often more fun to drive. The electric Ford pickup is basically just a better version of the fossil pickup. - Heat pumps can both heat and cool homes meaning there's no need for separate AC/heaters. They're also often installed with mini splits meaning that families have finer-grained control over the temperature in various rooms. - Induction stoves boil water in under a minute and are way easier to clean than gas or even electric resistance stoves. Plus gas stoves actually cause respiratory issues in homes. - Without emissions, our air becomes a lot more pleasant to breathe, kills fewer people, and thus overall health improves. Cities in particular will have noticeably better air quality. - Installing and maintaining electrified machines will create millions of new jobs in every zip code in the country and help distribute wealth. - All of this will be cheaper to run than fossil fuels due to the inherent efficiency of electrification. The average US household will actually save hundreds of dollars a year on energy bills. One of the tricks that will help make this all doable is to make emissions-free technologies up-front cheaper than the alternatives. So the thing that's the best for the climate is also best for the consumer's wallet. Government rebates would work great here and there's a bill being worked on right now for this: https://twitter.com/USRepKCastor/status/1426230666857959428 https://twitter.com/USRepKCastor/status/1426230666857959428
  - emodendroket 5y ago
    I agree with you and do not intend to represent them. Rather I mean it's "unimaginable" to the complainers who are ready to shoot holes in absolutely everything but don't have any plan of their own to address the problem.
    - Glench 5y ago
      Maybe you should speak for yourself! :)
  - 5y ago

by Glench 5y ago

emodendroket 5y ago

It would be great if you were right. But even assuming it's the case, people will have to adjust to the electrical appliances. People in this very community say that they simply cannot learn to cook on an electric stove, or rent a car for the infrequent occasions when they want to travel hundreds of miles, and therefore fossil fuel usage must be continued unabated. Even this level of very small sacrifice is unimaginable. Never mind the kind of more radical change the person you're replying to is talking about.

josephcsible 5y ago
Aren't stoves unique among gas appliances in that people prefer them over their electric counterparts for reasons other than cost to operate? Couldn't we reduce residential natural gas use by like 90% just by replacing all of the gas water heaters, clothes dryers, and furnaces with electric equivalents? (Note: I personally like induction stoves the best. I'm not arguing that gas stoves are a good thing, just that we can get 90% of the benefit for only like 10% of the whining by leaving them alone for now.)
- emodendroket 5y ago
  Well, maybe, but maybe not. Seems like they've been seized on as a wedge issue for natural gas, and if people "must" have them then we "must" maintain a whole natural gas infrastructure for them and can't limit its use for new construction. According to this article, a fair amount of effort goes into astroturfing the cause: https://www.motherjones.com/environment/2021/06/how-the-fossil-fuel-industry-convinced-americans-to-love-gas-stoves/ https://www.motherjones.com/environment/2021/06/how-the-foss...
Glench 5y ago
> Even this level of very small sacrifice is unimaginable. Unimaginable to who? I can easily imagine this. The negatives you list are real, but they'll get rapidly better in the next 20 years (longer range cars, more charging stations for example). But in focusing on the negatives you (and the people you say you're speaking for) forget the positives: - Electric cars already have the lowest cost of ownership of any cars and are often more fun to drive. The electric Ford pickup is basically just a better version of the fossil pickup. - Heat pumps can both heat and cool homes meaning there's no need for separate AC/heaters. They're also often installed with mini splits meaning that families have finer-grained control over the temperature in various rooms. - Induction stoves boil water in under a minute and are way easier to clean than gas or even electric resistance stoves. Plus gas stoves actually cause respiratory issues in homes. - Without emissions, our air becomes a lot more pleasant to breathe, kills fewer people, and thus overall health improves. Cities in particular will have noticeably better air quality. - Installing and maintaining electrified machines will create millions of new jobs in every zip code in the country and help distribute wealth. - All of this will be cheaper to run than fossil fuels due to the inherent efficiency of electrification. The average US household will actually save hundreds of dollars a year on energy bills. One of the tricks that will help make this all doable is to make emissions-free technologies up-front cheaper than the alternatives. So the thing that's the best for the climate is also best for the consumer's wallet. Government rebates would work great here and there's a bill being worked on right now for this: https://twitter.com/USRepKCastor/status/1426230666857959428 https://twitter.com/USRepKCastor/status/1426230666857959428
- emodendroket 5y ago
  I agree with you and do not intend to represent them. Rather I mean it's "unimaginable" to the complainers who are ready to shoot holes in absolutely everything but don't have any plan of their own to address the problem.
  - Glench 5y ago
    Maybe you should speak for yourself! :)
- 5y ago