5 ms·

What begs to emerge in the SerenityOS world is a form-centric visual RAD IDE like Delphi/VisualBasic/VisualStudio-WinForms. Powered by a higher-level (than C++)

What begs to emerge in the SerenityOS world is a form-centric visual RAD IDE like Delphi/VisualBasic/VisualStudio-WinForms. Powered by a higher-level (than C++) language preferably. And high-level (automatic memory management, first-class Unicode strings) languages don't have to be heavy, VisualBasic did quite well on 486s. But I don't actually mind C++, I enjoyed Borland C++ Builder (a Delphi clone I used because I never learned Pascal) and QNX PhAB and had no problem with C++ (but I didn't really enjoy MS VisualC++ MFC which required you to code the UI manually). I hope the actual GUI toolkit is engineered with potential support for visual designers in mind. It is also interesting to note how well do legacy Windows controls integrate with the system so old Windows apps running on modern Windows versions enjoy seamless support of modern user IO facilities which didn't exist when they were born (autocompletion, spell checking, dictation, screen reading, etc).

trashburger 5y ago
There used to be a visual form builder. Nobody used it to build applications, so it was eventually removed. Nowadays, GUI stuff for most applications are written in the GML language, which is Serenity-specific. You can look through the source code to see examples.
- qwerty456127 5y ago
  Why did it have to be removed? Why not just put it in maintenance mode without adding new features if there is not enough demand?
  - akling 5y ago
    I built it, believing it was going to be useful. In the end, it was not. There's no point in keeping unused features around, since the system is just for ourselves. Since then, we've built a markup language for interface design (GML) which has made GUI development significantly easier, so that's what we're focusing on instead. If someone wants to build a visual design tool on top of GML, they are obviously free to do so, but as with everything else in SerenityOS, people work on what they themselves are interested in. :)
    - qwerty456127 5y ago
      I see. Thank you. I will try the GML. PS: By the way, do your neighbours know you are a genius developer superhero? :-)
pjmlp 5y ago
On a side track, MFC C++ is the best offer current on MS stack for C++, as rediculous as it may seem. They introduced a C++ Builder like with C++/CX for WinRT, but apparently too many people inside Redmond wasn't happy to have it around, so now you get to use its replacement (C++/WinRT) as back on Visual C++ 6.0 and ATL. Pity that C++ RAD tooling similar to C++ Builder is seen as not for real developers. So the trend to write GUIs by hand on C++ is the only path known to many devs.
KronisLV 5y ago
On this note, is there any modern RAD solution like that, that's not essentially in maintenance mode, slowly dying or abandoned altogether? The closest that i can think of is Lazarus for FreePascal: https://www.lazarus-ide.org/ https://www.lazarus-ide.org/ It allows for native applications for a variety of platforms, is open and free and isn't constrained to a single OS like WinForms are. Things might improve with the new .NET versions somewhat and Java is also passable (with either Swing or JavaFX), but at least Java doesn't really feel native and needs JDK, as does .NET. Is Electron one of the only modern options (that isn't native though, only cross platform), or am i missing out on a whole class of lovely tools out there?
- javajosh 5y ago
  IntelliJ includes a Swing builder (and is itself written with Swing). The product that I miss for little SMB projects is Access. It was the best option for building single-user CRUD apps with a really thoughtful bundle of features. (It totally fell over with multi-user, and every user needed a license for the runtime (with some exceptions) and VBA had some major warts, but in terms of DX it was great)
  - qwerty456127 5y ago
    > IntelliJ includes a Swing builder Nice to know. I thought they deprecated soon after they added it. > and is itself written with Swing Is there a way to configure it to look like actual Swing[1]? [1] https://docs.oracle.com/cd/E37069_01/html/E37073/figures/ide-profiling-tools.png https://docs.oracle.com/cd/E37069_01/html/E37073/figures/ide...
    - javajosh 5y ago
      It's been a while, but Swing has a "Pluggable Look and Feel" (PLAF) where the default is Swing. See https://docs.oracle.com/javase/tutorial/uiswing/lookandfeel/plaf.html https://docs.oracle.com/javase/tutorial/uiswing/lookandfeel/... BTW here's a link to the component - it's called GUI Designer. https://www.jetbrains.com/help/idea/components-of-the-gui-designer.html https://www.jetbrains.com/help/idea/components-of-the-gui-de...
breakfastduck 5y ago
Thats begging to emerge just generally! Nothing has really filled the gap VB left.
jcelerier 5y ago
> Powered by a higher-level (than C++) language preferably. Yet C++ allowed them to write literally all that OS in a ridiculously small amount of time. Anyways, with Qt support (https://github.com/SerenityOS/serenity/pull/9362 https://github.com/SerenityOS/serenity/pull/9362) you can likely soon use Qt Creator for your RAD needs.
- pjmlp 5y ago
  1990's C++ frameworks like Powerplant, OWL and VCL were great. Qt is the only one left carrying that flag. C++ has all the tools to make it as easy as VB/Delphi kind of development, yet too many spoil it by sticking to what I would call C+. I was quite disappointed to the way XAML C++ has become, but apparently the teams that used WRL seem to be happy, more to them, rest of us are sticking with C# now.
dleslie 5y ago
Gambas exists and has regular updates still, is an open source Visual Basic clone. http://gambas.sourceforge.net/en/main.html http://gambas.sourceforge.net/en/main.html

trashburger 5y ago

There used to be a visual form builder. Nobody used it to build applications, so it was eventually removed. Nowadays, GUI stuff for most applications are written in the GML language, which is Serenity-specific. You can look through the source code to see examples.

qwerty456127 5y ago
Why did it have to be removed? Why not just put it in maintenance mode without adding new features if there is not enough demand?
- akling 5y ago
  I built it, believing it was going to be useful. In the end, it was not. There's no point in keeping unused features around, since the system is just for ourselves. Since then, we've built a markup language for interface design (GML) which has made GUI development significantly easier, so that's what we're focusing on instead. If someone wants to build a visual design tool on top of GML, they are obviously free to do so, but as with everything else in SerenityOS, people work on what they themselves are interested in. :)
  - qwerty456127 5y ago
    I see. Thank you. I will try the GML. PS: By the way, do your neighbours know you are a genius developer superhero? :-)

pjmlp 5y ago

On a side track, MFC C++ is the best offer current on MS stack for C++, as rediculous as it may seem. They introduced a C++ Builder like with C++/CX for WinRT, but apparently too many people inside Redmond wasn't happy to have it around, so now you get to use its replacement (C++/WinRT) as back on Visual C++ 6.0 and ATL. Pity that C++ RAD tooling similar to C++ Builder is seen as not for real developers. So the trend to write GUIs by hand on C++ is the only path known to many devs.

KronisLV 5y ago

On this note, is there any modern RAD solution like that, that's not essentially in maintenance mode, slowly dying or abandoned altogether? The closest that i can think of is Lazarus for FreePascal: https://www.lazarus-ide.org/ https://www.lazarus-ide.org/ It allows for native applications for a variety of platforms, is open and free and isn't constrained to a single OS like WinForms are. Things might improve with the new .NET versions somewhat and Java is also passable (with either Swing or JavaFX), but at least Java doesn't really feel native and needs JDK, as does .NET. Is Electron one of the only modern options (that isn't native though, only cross platform), or am i missing out on a whole class of lovely tools out there?

javajosh 5y ago
IntelliJ includes a Swing builder (and is itself written with Swing). The product that I miss for little SMB projects is Access. It was the best option for building single-user CRUD apps with a really thoughtful bundle of features. (It totally fell over with multi-user, and every user needed a license for the runtime (with some exceptions) and VBA had some major warts, but in terms of DX it was great)
- qwerty456127 5y ago
  > IntelliJ includes a Swing builder Nice to know. I thought they deprecated soon after they added it. > and is itself written with Swing Is there a way to configure it to look like actual Swing[1]? [1] https://docs.oracle.com/cd/E37069_01/html/E37073/figures/ide-profiling-tools.png https://docs.oracle.com/cd/E37069_01/html/E37073/figures/ide...
  - javajosh 5y ago
    It's been a while, but Swing has a "Pluggable Look and Feel" (PLAF) where the default is Swing. See https://docs.oracle.com/javase/tutorial/uiswing/lookandfeel/plaf.html https://docs.oracle.com/javase/tutorial/uiswing/lookandfeel/... BTW here's a link to the component - it's called GUI Designer. https://www.jetbrains.com/help/idea/components-of-the-gui-designer.html https://www.jetbrains.com/help/idea/components-of-the-gui-de...

breakfastduck 5y ago

Thats begging to emerge just generally! Nothing has really filled the gap VB left.

jcelerier 5y ago

> Powered by a higher-level (than C++) language preferably. Yet C++ allowed them to write literally all that OS in a ridiculously small amount of time. Anyways, with Qt support (https://github.com/SerenityOS/serenity/pull/9362 https://github.com/SerenityOS/serenity/pull/9362) you can likely soon use Qt Creator for your RAD needs.

pjmlp 5y ago
1990's C++ frameworks like Powerplant, OWL and VCL were great. Qt is the only one left carrying that flag. C++ has all the tools to make it as easy as VB/Delphi kind of development, yet too many spoil it by sticking to what I would call C+. I was quite disappointed to the way XAML C++ has become, but apparently the teams that used WRL seem to be happy, more to them, rest of us are sticking with C# now.

dleslie 5y ago

Gambas exists and has regular updates still, is an open source Visual Basic clone. http://gambas.sourceforge.net/en/main.html http://gambas.sourceforge.net/en/main.html