6 ms·

Ridiculous. So if I use malware to insert CSAM on your iPhone, you're "actively" committing a crime? CSA is a crime, but a person suspected of that must be prop

Ridiculous. So if I use malware to insert CSAM on your iPhone, you're "actively" committing a crime? CSA is a crime, but a person suspected of that must be properly tried through the judicial process. Private entities can also monitor what passes through their premises, but they have no business planting continuous surveillance functionality on your premises without a court warrant. Everyone knows that the worst CSA happen in lawless countries and regions. This is mere pretext to build generalised surveillance infrastructure, or more importantly, normalise the concept of being continuously surveilled by faceless entities. That is the big push society is heading generally towards. It started with CCTV and will end with brain implants, unless society decided enough is enough at some point instead of endless hair-splitting.

birdyrooster 5y ago
We will have to try brain implants at least once to know it’s a bad choice
nonbirithm 5y ago
The law still views willful possession as a crime, otherwise we wouldn't be here. I agree that does open up the possibility that you could frame somebody by planting CSAM on their device. Building mass surveillance features into the device only makes that easier to accomplish than before. But everybody agrees that outlawing the possession of CSAM in general is the right thing to do. This was the case even in a time when the Internet was still in its infancy.
hannasanarion 5y ago
In what scenario would somebody target you for CSAM framing, and not tip off the police that there was CP on your phone themselves? The apple technology only adds passive detection. In the event of a framing, passive detection is not necessary. This technology doesn't enable any new attacks.
- Zababa 5y ago
  On the contrary, with passive detection you don't have to risk tipping the person off to the police yourself, so it becomes even easier to frame people.
  - hannasanarion 5y ago
    By crossing your fingers and hoping that the Apple reviewers mistake the grey blobs for porn, the NCMEC reviewers mistake the grey blobs for porn, and the police, DA, and judges all mistake the grey blobs for porn, and that the person being targeted doesn't notice the mysteriously appearing grey blobs on their phone in time for that entire process to happen?
    - Zababa 5y ago
      Or you could find pornographic pictures with a person that looks quite young in them, and slighly modify the picture until you get a collision.
      - hannasanarion 5y ago
        And why would anybody be more interested in framing somebody with an image that looks so similar to child porn that it convinces dozens of professional child-porn investigators and yet technically isn't, instead of just sending the actual child porn? They neeed to already have the original image to make the hash collision. In your scenario, what does the attacker gain from sending a visually-indistinguishable collider instead of the original?
        Zababa 5y ago
        They gain that the image won't be detected by CSAM detecting systems on their devices.
        hannasanarion 5y ago
        Yes, it would, because they need to have the original CSAM image in order to forge the hash collision. This method doesn't work unless you have the original photo to look at, meaning that your device will be raising alerts just as much as the targets, except you will be the only one incriminated since the target doesn't actually have any CSAM, only the hash-collided fake that you've made.

birdyrooster 5y ago

We will have to try brain implants at least once to know it’s a bad choice

nonbirithm 5y ago

The law still views willful possession as a crime, otherwise we wouldn't be here. I agree that does open up the possibility that you could frame somebody by planting CSAM on their device. Building mass surveillance features into the device only makes that easier to accomplish than before. But everybody agrees that outlawing the possession of CSAM in general is the right thing to do. This was the case even in a time when the Internet was still in its infancy.

hannasanarion 5y ago

In what scenario would somebody target you for CSAM framing, and not tip off the police that there was CP on your phone themselves? The apple technology only adds passive detection. In the event of a framing, passive detection is not necessary. This technology doesn't enable any new attacks.

Zababa 5y ago
On the contrary, with passive detection you don't have to risk tipping the person off to the police yourself, so it becomes even easier to frame people.
- hannasanarion 5y ago
  By crossing your fingers and hoping that the Apple reviewers mistake the grey blobs for porn, the NCMEC reviewers mistake the grey blobs for porn, and the police, DA, and judges all mistake the grey blobs for porn, and that the person being targeted doesn't notice the mysteriously appearing grey blobs on their phone in time for that entire process to happen?
  - Zababa 5y ago
    Or you could find pornographic pictures with a person that looks quite young in them, and slighly modify the picture until you get a collision.
    - hannasanarion 5y ago
      And why would anybody be more interested in framing somebody with an image that looks so similar to child porn that it convinces dozens of professional child-porn investigators and yet technically isn't, instead of just sending the actual child porn? They neeed to already have the original image to make the hash collision. In your scenario, what does the attacker gain from sending a visually-indistinguishable collider instead of the original?
      - Zababa 5y ago
        They gain that the image won't be detected by CSAM detecting systems on their devices.
        hannasanarion 5y ago
        Yes, it would, because they need to have the original CSAM image in order to forge the hash collision. This method doesn't work unless you have the original photo to look at, meaning that your device will be raising alerts just as much as the targets, except you will be the only one incriminated since the target doesn't actually have any CSAM, only the hash-collided fake that you've made.