5 ms·

I think you may have attracted less downvotes if the phrasing was changed to "Yes, just like false accusations of rape, it doesn't matter that you prove it was

I think you may have attracted less downvotes if the phrasing was changed to "Yes, just like false accusations of rape, it doesn't matter that you prove it was false afterwards." I also think that those downvoting you might've applied the principle of charity and taken the best interpretation of what you've written or at least ask.

sneak 5y ago
All criminal accusations, including true ones, should be treated as false until the accused is proven guilty. This is a fundamental tenet of human rights in western, small-l liberal free societies. The fact that this is controversial these days is literally insane to me. The consequences of throwing this fundamental system out the window is that you get the sort of nonsense that happened with Assange, where he was literally never even charged yet completely and thoroughly discredited due to headlines containing the word "rape" when no such thing ever happened. (If you have been misled to believe otherwise, I encourage you to read the direct statements of the women involved.)
- cma 5y ago
  That's the burden for incarceration, not for making a personal best guess about guilt. Even far below best guess, would you send your kid with a camp councilor that you were 20% sure was guilty of something like that?
  - Sebb767 5y ago
    I probably would be doubtful even at 1%, sure. But there's no denying that this ruins the life of 99 innocent people for every actual criminal.
    - sneak 5y ago
      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blackstone%27s_ratio https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blackstone%27s_ratio
- Ensorceled 5y ago
  > All criminal accusations, including true ones, should be treated as false until the accused is proven guilty. No, they need to be treated as unproven, a very critical difference. Just to be clear, witness testimony, including testimony FROM THE VICTIM, is evidence of the crime. Just for some reason, in rape cases, we go all wonky with this principle.
  - Sebb767 5y ago
    Testimony is seen as wonky in all kinds of cases. The problem with testimony about rape, however, is that, in those cases, supporting evidence is rarer than usual and even when it exists, proving it was non-consensual at the time is even harder (especially when relationships or affairs are involved).
    - Ensorceled 5y ago
      Yes, rape is more difficult to prove than a number of other crimes. That is no reason to jump to a default "assume the accusation is false".
      - ziml77 5y ago
        The reason to default to that is because a principle of our legal system is that people are innocent until proven guilty. On top of that proving someone guilty requires going beyond reasonable doubt.
        Ensorceled 5y ago
        The principle is the defendant is innocent until proven guilty, NOT that the accuser is making a false accusation. There is a reason the verdict is "not guilty" instead of "innocent". After a not guilty verdict the legal system still does not assume the accuser was making a false accusation.
        Sebb767 5y ago
- DebtDeflation 5y ago
  The real problem occurs long before a verdict is rendered in a court of law. Someone gets arrested for a misdemeanor, they spend a couple of nights in jail until bail can be arranged, in the meantime they got fired for missing work, the car they were driving was towed/impounded and will cost them hundreds of dollars to retrieve, they missed their rent payment and their landlord has begun eviction proceedings, etc. The fact that they are found not guilty when their trial happens a year later is irrelevant. Not to mention every future potential employer Googles their name and the first link that comes up is their arrest record. The "presumption of innocence" is meaningless when so much damage is done long before a trial even starts.
- chitowneats 5y ago
  The West has largely abandoned "small-l" liberalism. Not yet formally in many cases but defacto in terms of government actions and the views of the people.
Ensorceled 5y ago
> I also think that those downvoting you might've applied the principle of charity and taken the best interpretation of what you've written or at least ask. There are far too many people who assume/assert false accusations of rape are the norm for the principle of charity to apply here.
- brigandish 5y ago
  Is it the norm here? If not, then I suggest the principle should apply here.

sneak 5y ago

All criminal accusations, including true ones, should be treated as false until the accused is proven guilty. This is a fundamental tenet of human rights in western, small-l liberal free societies. The fact that this is controversial these days is literally insane to me. The consequences of throwing this fundamental system out the window is that you get the sort of nonsense that happened with Assange, where he was literally never even charged yet completely and thoroughly discredited due to headlines containing the word "rape" when no such thing ever happened. (If you have been misled to believe otherwise, I encourage you to read the direct statements of the women involved.)

cma 5y ago
That's the burden for incarceration, not for making a personal best guess about guilt. Even far below best guess, would you send your kid with a camp councilor that you were 20% sure was guilty of something like that?
- Sebb767 5y ago
  I probably would be doubtful even at 1%, sure. But there's no denying that this ruins the life of 99 innocent people for every actual criminal.
  - sneak 5y ago
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blackstone%27s_ratio https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blackstone%27s_ratio
Ensorceled 5y ago
> All criminal accusations, including true ones, should be treated as false until the accused is proven guilty. No, they need to be treated as unproven, a very critical difference. Just to be clear, witness testimony, including testimony FROM THE VICTIM, is evidence of the crime. Just for some reason, in rape cases, we go all wonky with this principle.
- Sebb767 5y ago
  Testimony is seen as wonky in all kinds of cases. The problem with testimony about rape, however, is that, in those cases, supporting evidence is rarer than usual and even when it exists, proving it was non-consensual at the time is even harder (especially when relationships or affairs are involved).
  - Ensorceled 5y ago
    Yes, rape is more difficult to prove than a number of other crimes. That is no reason to jump to a default "assume the accusation is false".
    - ziml77 5y ago
      The reason to default to that is because a principle of our legal system is that people are innocent until proven guilty. On top of that proving someone guilty requires going beyond reasonable doubt.
      - Ensorceled 5y ago
        The principle is the defendant is innocent until proven guilty, NOT that the accuser is making a false accusation. There is a reason the verdict is "not guilty" instead of "innocent". After a not guilty verdict the legal system still does not assume the accuser was making a false accusation.
        Sebb767 5y ago
DebtDeflation 5y ago
The real problem occurs long before a verdict is rendered in a court of law. Someone gets arrested for a misdemeanor, they spend a couple of nights in jail until bail can be arranged, in the meantime they got fired for missing work, the car they were driving was towed/impounded and will cost them hundreds of dollars to retrieve, they missed their rent payment and their landlord has begun eviction proceedings, etc. The fact that they are found not guilty when their trial happens a year later is irrelevant. Not to mention every future potential employer Googles their name and the first link that comes up is their arrest record. The "presumption of innocence" is meaningless when so much damage is done long before a trial even starts.
chitowneats 5y ago
The West has largely abandoned "small-l" liberalism. Not yet formally in many cases but defacto in terms of government actions and the views of the people.

Ensorceled 5y ago

> I also think that those downvoting you might've applied the principle of charity and taken the best interpretation of what you've written or at least ask. There are far too many people who assume/assert false accusations of rape are the norm for the principle of charity to apply here.

brigandish 5y ago
Is it the norm here? If not, then I suggest the principle should apply here.